Craftsmanship: Yesterday -vs- Today

[Growler]

Nope, not another typical this versus that thread. This is one where I really want to know from the (cough, cough) more 'distinguished' ( never said OLD!) members that can chime in. Seriously you can continue arguing and name calling about it if you so choose, but lets give some real examples of yesterday versus today. I have to believe somewhere between all the bottle throwing and fist flying there MUST be some truth! That means, Epi then...Epi Now....Gibson then...Gibson now.

 

Why don't more people start Gibson 1965 vs. Gibson 2008 threads??? We all know back then everything was built with more pride. I personally have seen a few seriously expensive (these days) custom shop Gibby's that had flaws...so whats it going to be fellows?....Let's break down the real and fair argument...If you pay around $2000 dollars shouldn't you get perfection in craftsmanship? What about over that amount? I know I'd sure as hell expect it.....

 

So tell us! How was it back then compared to now?

[Nic]

The vintage Guitar market is absurd. There's a beat up old Strat on the wall of my GC for $45,000...choke-choke.

 

I saw a 50's Les Paul Gold Top on e-bay for $125,000. What idiot would get his brain so screwed up that he would think an old piece of wood and deteriorating metal is worth a dime.

[Growler]

The vintage Guitar market is absurd. There's a beat up old Strat on the wall of my GC for $45' date='000...choke-choke.

 

I saw a 50's Les Paul Gold Top on e-bay for $125,000. What idiot would get his brain so screwed up that he would think an old piece of wood and deteriorating metal is worth a dime.

 

 

 

 

[/quote']

 

Wrong thread man. This is about Craftsmanship: Yesterday -vs- Today.

[duane v]

I would say in general, production processes are more accurate these days, and are developed for having less human involvement and speed of production.

 

Sure it's nice to say you have a guitar made completely by hand and by one person. But in saying that doesn't always mean quality is built into that said instrument.

 

What I've learn through my professional life, the more human involvement in a said process, the more chance for quality issues...... You ask why?? Well humans will be humans.... in other words, "nobodies perfect."

 

As for the pride issue... I'm sure back in the 1950-1960's there were employees that didn't give a damn either, and just showed up to collect a paycheck. In general if you give the American worker the proper tools to be successful, and allow a sense of ownership for employees within any production line. The chances of producing a quality product at the end of the day will always be greater.

[Troy Martin]

duane: the handmade guitars are pretty great, I mean, come on. If a guitar that was made with a little human error has a particular sound to it, it's because of that error. If you like that sound, the error was good.

[duane v]

duane: the handmade guitars are pretty great' date=' I mean, come on. If a guitar that was made with a little human error has a particular sound to it, it's because of that error. If you like that sound, the error was good.[/quote']

 

I agree having a guitar with the "hand made" pedigree is always nice to have... Even machines have tolerance differences that can occur, and create a different guitar tone and feel. And to mention the differences in the material used for the same type/model of instruments on the same production run is always a little different, regardless if the material came from the same tree, rock or mountain on all the instruments on the same production run.

 

Again hand made is great, but IMO it's a bit over-rated.

[MarxBros]

The vintage Guitar market is absurd. There's a beat up old Strat on the wall of my GC for $45' date='000...choke-choke.

 

I saw a 50's Les Paul Gold Top on e-bay for $125,000. What idiot would get his brain so screwed up that he would think an old piece of wood and deteriorating metal is worth a dime.

 

 

 

 

[/quote']You don't get it at all do you?

 

Go check the baseball card, stamp or any other collectible market and then perhaps you might get an idea of the reality of collectibles and their prices.

[charlie brown]

Well, IMHO...production constistancy is much greater now, for (Better or worse). "Value" is another thing, entirely. That is

market or "human desire" driven.

 

CB

[duane v]

"Value" is another thing' date=' entirely. That is

market or "human desire" driven.

 

CB[/quote']

 

very good point..... The old saying, "One mans trash is another mans treasure." Regardless of whether the item is vintage or new.

[Just Strum]

The thing about machines is if the settings aren't correct, you have a number of flawed guitars. However, if the setting are correct, you have a number of well made guitars. Since one machine doesn't do it all, you hope that you line up all your well set operations across an entire lot of guitars. Hand made guitars will vary more from guitar to guitar, but again, get one that all the work has done to spec and you have a great guitar.

 

If you didn't have mass produced guitars, you would have prices that would be so far out of reach to the average player.

 

As for quality of today versus the past, I guess you would have to pinpoint a time and a make of guitar to really get a true answer. As for hand built guitars, I think the benefit is when you want a custom guitar that is unique in several ways. Another thing to remember is that there really is no hand made guitars to speak of since a machine (router, saw, sander) is most likely going to touch it. I think hand made would be defined by how much the machine is controlled by human hands.

 

I can't really answer the thread since I never have touched a group of guitars that were made over a span of generations.

[MarxBros]

One of the biggest issues is the available wood.

 

The rosewood, ebony, mahogany used thse days hardly bears any resemblance to the what was used 50+ years ago.

 

All the good old growth stuff is gone and many woods are protected/controled from harvest now.

 

I have a 1939 Gibson archtop and the rosewood for the fingerboard is incredible, it's fretboard feel and playability is unmatched by any newer guitar I've touched.

 

The cheap imports that have a mahogany body spec'd in suffer even greater from this wood issue as they are using a "mahogany" that is vastly different.

[WireWhipper]

I'm not old enough to have played very many old guitars, but as for quality and craftsmanship of today's Gibsons, I've visited the Gibson Memphis facility recently (where all the hollowbodies are made) and I was amazed at how much hand-craftsmanship still goes into building those guitars. While I don't think it justifies the price tag of some of them, it certainly is refreshing to see that some things are still made the "old-fashioned" way.

 

To me, one of the unique things about handmade guitars are that the small inconsistencies from instrument to instrument are part of what makes them unique in terms of finish, sound, playability, etc.

[Just Strum]

 

To me' date=' one of the unique things about handmade guitars are that the small inconsistencies from instrument to instrument are part of what makes them unique in terms of finish, sound, playability, etc.[/quote']

 

In hand made guitars they are referred to as inconsistencies, when they are machine made they are referred to as flaws - go figure.

[stan 58]

If your talking about Guitars from the 70s i'll take a new one in a heart beat. Stan.

[Nic]

You don't get it at all do you?

 

Go check the baseball card' date=' stamp or any other collectible market and then perhaps you might get an idea of the reality of collectibles and their prices.[/quote']

 

I do get it. I'm annoyed by all collectables. But I don't begrudge anyone from pursuing a collecting hobby, or for paying any amount of money they wish for a guitar or baseball card or whatever. It's non of my business, I'm just expressing a personal opinion.

[Nic]

 

Wrong thread man. This is about Craftsmanship: Yesterday -vs- Today.

 

The implication is that vintage guitars are better because the craftsmanship of the "old days" is better than today. IMHO I doubt that there is a big difference.

[JefferySmith]

Computer operated machines can carve out guitar parts with fewer man hours and less variation from piece to piece. But the huge volume created these days limits the availability of truly fine wood. When I was 15 years old, I would guess that the number of guitar players/owners is 1/10 of what it is today.

[Ron G]

I do get it. I'm annoyed by all collectables. But I don't begrudge anyone from pursuing a collecting hobby' date=' or for paying any amount of money they wish for a guitar or baseball card or whatever. It's non of my business, I'm just expressing a personal opinion.[/quote']

Hey, you're not alone - I don't understand collecting, either.

[JefferySmith]

Hey' date=' you're not alone - I don't understand collecting, either.[/quote']

I collect, but they certainly aren't collectibles. I guess I'm an acquirer.

[antwhi2001]

I shouldn't generalise but I will anyway....

 

No doubt at all for me, the current Chinese-produced Epis are inferior quality in almost every aspect to comparable models from the Epi ranges of the past. You could argue that you still get a good playable guitar for a reasonable price, but having opened a few up and put them together again, it's obvious that the quality of materials and workmanship really isn't what it was. The only exception I'd make to that comment is the Grovers, can't really fault those. If I was going to buy another Epi LP or SG I'd wait for a Samick one from late 90s / early 00s to come up on e-bay, rather than buy recent production. Unlike Gibsons, Epis have been made in umpteen countries in a range of factories and specifications have changed continually. I've already commented before, the quality of materials and construction on my new LP Custom Plus is inferior to my old Samick-built LP Standard in all regards except the Grovers. The Samick looked like it was built with pride, the EE Chinese one is thrown together. I bought it online and got it cheap, so I'm not complaining. I've done some work to it and I'm gigging with it now.

 

As far as Gibsons go, the quality has always been more variable, not surprising as there is more craftsmanship and less machinery involved. I've seen some poorly finished new Gibsons in retail stores from time to time, but generally with a Gibson you get vastly better wood, electrics and build quality. Every Gibson I've had has been capable of being set up to achieve nice low action with no buzzes/rattles, and good natural sustain, and they stay in tune if you know how to string them properly. All of those comments apply to the "low end" fadeds too.

 

Remember when you see a 1950s / 1960s guitar now, any "problems" or flaws tend to have been sorted over the years by previous owners, so no surprise if they play and sound great.

[WireWhipper]

I think with any manufacturer, there are always going to be lemons. Same with cars, or anything else mass produced, really. I've had two Gibsons that I took back because they wouldn't stay in tune. One was a SG Classic w/ p-90s, and the other was a sunburst Les Paul Classic. Neither guitar would stay in tune despite repeated trips to the local guitar shop to be worked on. But I now have a gold top LP Classic that looks and plays beautifully. By the same token I also have my new Dot that, while relatively inexpensive compared to my other guitars, also plays well.

 

Antwhi - it's a shame you've had bad luck w/ Chinese Epi's. My Chinese Dot has so far functioned very well save for a cheap nut that I intend to replace. But by the same token, I have not played any older Samick era Epi's.

[MarxBros]

I think with any manufacturer' date=' there are always going to be lemons. Same with cars, or anything else mass produced, really. I've had two Gibsons that I took back because they wouldn't stay in tune. One was a SG Classic w/ p-90s, and the other was a sunburst Les Paul Classic. Neither guitar would stay in tune despite repeated trips to the local guitar shop to be worked on. But I now have a gold top LP Classic that looks and plays beautifully. By the same token I also have my new Dot that, while relatively inexpensive compared to my other guitars, also plays well.

 

Antwhi - it's a shame you've had bad luck w/ Chinese Epi's. My Chinese Dot has so far functioned very well save for a cheap nut that I intend to replace. But by the same token, I have not played any older Samick era Epi's.[/quote']

 

I have to doubt the knowledge of anyone that would send a guitar back because they "wouldn't stay in tune".

 

That is just plain BS.

 

ANY guitar tech worth a dime could've fixed those guitars in a matter of minutes.

[Nic]

 

I have to doubt the knowledge of anyone that would send a guitar back because they "wouldn't stay in tune".

 

That is just plain BS.

 

ANY guitar tech worth a dime could've fixed those guitars in a matter of minutes.

 

I agree with MarxBros, what would cause a guitar to not stay in tune that couldn't be easily fixed?

[snookelputz]

I think CNC machines have raised the minimum level of acceptable craftsmanship so far that entry level guitars are now on a par with the average instrument made by hand - whether contemporary or vintage - and average to good CNC guitars are pretty much even with good to very good handcrafted guitars. The very, very top layer, though - the best guitars of all time - were (and still are!) handmade. Machines cannot self-modify on the fly, nor do they ever have a flash of genius.

[MarxBros]

 

I agree with MarxBros' date=' what would cause a guitar to not stay in tune that couldn't be easily fixed?[/quote']

 

Unless the neck was cracked or falling off, (which I assume we can rule out), it would most likey be bad saddles, bad nut slots or bad strings/stringing job.

 

ALL very easily fixed.