Fret wear, how long do they last?

[gibplayer]

There are posts from two newbies on this thread, including the OP, about the quality of frets on recent Epiphone models. The OP has a history of three posts overall, two of which are on this thread; and his very first post starts another thread which seems to be leading up to this one. As has been said, soft frets on Epis is a favourite trouble stirring topic of one of the trolls on here. Apologies to the two newbies if I'm wrong, but the cynic in me thinks we're all being sucked in to yet another troll game.

 

My opinion on the relevance of the soft fret issue is this:

 

Both Gibson and Epi use jumbo frets on their most popular guitars and these will take numerous fret dressings before a refret is required. As most Epi owners have several guitars and play for their own pleasure, I just wonder how many of us ever go for anything more than an initial fret dressing, if that?

[Steven Lister]

You havent exactly shown any proof to back up your side either.... The ball is in your court. Find some info supporting your claims and prove me wrong...even if only for the sake of a good debateo:)

 

You can buy fret wire: but you cannot buy “soft fret wire.” Why not? If it was being made and used on a commercial scale' date=' then you could buy it from suppliers like Stew-Mac or direct low-cost from Asia on Ebay. But no, everybody sells 18% nickel-steel or harder metals like stainless.

 

The wear factors I previously explained are due to the following:

1. profiles/crowns are more rounded on Asian makes so there is less material on the crown

2. Asian makes appear to wear faster early-on, but as the rounded crown tops wear down a bit the wear slows to a normal pace and many years of good playability follow.

3. different playing styles and string material/gauges yields different results for each person

4. flaws occur in metallurgy – spot flaws may end up on any particular guitar regardless of where the guitar was assembled, it is not peculiar to Asian made brands

 

Unlike others who want to profit from re-fret work by spreading a soft fret panic, or who argue that Gibsons are much better because, or who just argue, my only interest is curiosity and guitar buying decisions based on fact as opposed to myths. Now let's see something along the lines of factual support from the soft fretters (not the old worn out hymn of "it's so b/c we say it is.")

 

Back to you....

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[MarxBros]

 

You can buy fret wire: but you cannot buy “soft fret wire.” Why not? If it was being made and used on a commercial scale' date=' then you could buy it from suppliers like Stew-Mac or direct low-cost from Asia on Ebay. But no, everybody sells 18% nickel-steel or harder metals like stainless.

 

The wear factors I previously explained are due to the following:

1. profiles/crowns are more rounded on Asian makes so there is less material on the crown

2. Asian makes appear to wear faster early-on, but as the rounded crown tops wear down a bit the wear slows to a normal pace and many years of good playability follow.

3. different playing styles and string material/gauges yields different results for each person

4. flaws occur in metallurgy – spot flaws may end up on any particular guitar regardless of where the guitar was assembled, it is not peculiar to Asian made brands

 

Unlike others who want to profit from re-fret work by spreading a soft fret panic, or who argue that Gibsons are much better because, or who just argue, my only interest is curiosity and guitar buying decisions based on fact as opposed to myths. Now let's see something along the lines of factual support from the soft fretters (not the old worn out hymn of "it's so b/c we say it is.")

 

Back to you....

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

Your twisted logic is laughable at best.

 

If you personally did 1 fret level job on an import and 1 on a USA Fender or a Gibson you would at once realize which guitar had soft frets. Your attempt to discuss this logically gets funnier with each post of yours.

[gibplayer]

Mr. Lister has at least made an attempt to explain his position by referring to the lack of any commercially available 'soft' fret wire.

 

The counter arguement is still the usual "because I say so" as predicted by Mr. Lister.

[animalfarm]

Is this the concept that is causing so much concern? As the fret wears down, it

changes the last point of contact, which technically changes the string length

of the fretted note, causing tonal variations... Or SUMPIN' like 'dat! You ain't

ekzacly in tune any more...

 

[Steven Lister]

MarxBros reply = "it's so b/c we say it is." Hiding the ball yet again behind belittling comments.

How much $$ have you made from all those re-fret jobs (MarxBros says he's done "fret jobs like I have for over 20 years..."). Your real motives are suspect.

 

The ball is still with you soft fretters....

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[MarxBros]

Mr. Lister has at least made an attempt to explain his position by referring to the lack of any commercially available 'soft' fret wire.

 

The counter arguement is still the usual "because I say so" as predicted by Mr. Lister.

No...it's not because I say so. It's because the FACTS say so.

 

Unfortunately you're probably not qualified to attempt a fret level on a guitar...if you were you'd find out real quick when doing an import or a USA Fender Gibson which one has soft frets. It's a joke at best, the import fret wire is total trash.

 

The fallacy of all the pro posts here is an obvious attempt to whitewash the facts of the quality of the imports fret wire. If you say it enough you think it will come true.

 

 

Here's the facts:

 

The import Grover tuners are not as good as USA ones.

 

Import mahogany is not as good.

 

Import rosewood or "ebony" is not as good.

 

Import pots are not as good.

 

Import wiring is not as good.

 

Import pickups are not as good.

 

Import hardware is not as good.

 

Import fretwork AND fretwire is not as good.

 

 

Does anyone really think when they have cut ALL other corners to save a pennny the fet wire would not be cheaper also?

[gibplayer]

No...it's not because I say so. It's because the FACTS say so.

 

Unfortunately you're probably not qualified to attempt a fret level on a guitar...if you were you'd find out real quick when doing an import or a USA Fender Gibson which one has soft frets. It's a joke at best' date=' the import fret wire is total trash.

 

The fallacy of all the pro posts here is an obvious attempt to whitewash the facts of the quality of the imports fret wire. If you say it enough you think it will come true.

 

 

Here's the facts:

 

The import Grover tuners are not as good as USA ones.

 

Import mahogany is not as good.

 

Import rosewood or "ebony" is not as good.

 

Import pots are not as good.

 

Import wiring is not as good.

 

Import pickups are not as good.

 

Import hardware is not as good.

 

Import fretwork AND fretwire is not as good.

 

 

Does anyone really think when they have cut ALL other corners to save a pennny the fet wire would not be cheaper also?[/quote']

 

 

 

 

I'm really glad we've been provided with yet more "facts" rather than opinion backed up by absolutely nothing.

 

Now I know about this latest bunch of "facts" I can start replacing all the imported german rubbish I've got on some of my guitars.

[MarxBros]

MarxBros reply = "it's so b/c we say it is." Hiding the ball yet again behind belittling comments.

How much $$ have you made from all those re-fret jobs (MarxBros says he's done "fret jobs like I have for over 20 years..."). Your real motives are suspect.

 

The ball is still with you soft fretters....

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby...' date=' I'm going to play on:-"

[/quote']Yeah, my motives are real suspect. You get funnier with every post trying to cover up the fact that corners are cut, including poor fret wire.

 

Show me one post here where I have EVER tried to sell one item or service. You can go back 20 years on any guitar forum I've ever been on. I have NEVER tried to sell one item or service.

 

Fact is I've given guitar lessons for free to kids with no money, I've changed their strings and fixed their frets, FOR FREE. I've even given away guitars... FREE.

 

I've made very little money over the years on guitar work, I don't need to, I make plenty at my day job.

 

You sir make me laugh.

[Steven Lister]

Is this the concept that is causing so much concern?

Good illustration. But rather than new/worn -- think of it as Asian profile vs. Gibson profile.

When new Gibson frets are flatter -- like the worn image -- so they wear slowly right from new.

Asian frets are rounded like the "new" image resulting in less material on the crown (which marks or wears down faster but only at first -- only until the crown wears to the more flat or Gibson-like shape). They don't wear-out' date=' they wear-in and play on like any another.

 

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[MarxBros]

Good illustration. But rather than new/worn look at it as Asian profile vs. Gibson profile.

When new Gibson frets are flatter -- like the worn image -- so they wear slowly right from new.

Asian frets are rounded like the "new" image resulting in less material on the crown (which marks or wears down faster but only at first -- only until the crown wears to the more flat or Gibson-like shape). They don't wear-out' date=' they wear-in and play on like any another.

 

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

The crown or shape of the fret has nothing to do with this discussion. Fact is yes when comparing same wire to various shape it can dictate speed of wear. Fret shape has nothing to do with this discussion. The hardness of the wire is the point here.

 

Lets see...you have no pratical hands on knowledge of guitar fretwork, yet you want to discuss it?

 

That IS funny.

[animalfarm]

Fret Not!!!

 

USA or ASIAN?

 

 

 

THESE frets are fine, but the fingerboard is wearing out.....

 

 

 

Smile, gentlemen, smile.

 

[MarxBros]

There are posts from two newbies on this thread' date=' including the OP, about the quality of frets on recent Epiphone models. The OP has a history of three posts overall, two of which are on this thread; and his very first post starts another thread which seems to be leading up to this one. As has been said, soft frets on Epis is a favourite trouble stirring topic of one of the trolls on here. Apologies to the two newbies if I'm wrong, but the cynic in me thinks we're all being sucked in to yet another troll game.

So...you claim this is all stirred up by one person? I challenge you to prove that. I post under one screen name here and only one at a time. Period. This is yet another sorry line of reasoning to whitewash the cheap fret wire issue.

 

 

Both Gibson and Epi use jumbo frets on their most popular guitars and these will take numerous fret dressings before a refret is required. As most Epi owners have several guitars and play for their own pleasure' date=' I just wonder how many of us ever go for anything more than an initial fret dressing, if that?[/quote']Jumbo...define jumbo? I've seen that term used WAY too loosely.

 

Fact is the soft wire makes for gritty feeling frets, as fast as you polish/smooth them they get heavy scratches and are back to gritty playing.

[animalfarm]

As long as the subject of FRETS is up, a co-worker brought his kid's Dean

MXL to me to look at - the kid had fret buzz on the high strings near the

neck joint, so he "corrected" the problem by gently POUNDING them with a steel

hammer. Uh-huh...

I taped off fret board, used black marker, crowning file, 800, 1200, 1500 grit

sandpaper and 0000 steel wool - file, file, file, sand, sand, sand, polish, etc.

Removed all hammer enhancements, no more strings DRAGGING on frets,

no fret buzz, nice smooth bends, nice and shiny now! Maybe I should change my

name to Lex Luthier... I'm a "shade-tree" gitar tech now!!!

[MarxBros]

As long as the subject of FRETS is up' date=' a co-worker brought his kid's Dean

MXL to me to look at - the kid had fret buzz on the high strings near the

neck, so he "corrected" the problem by gently POUNDING them with a steel

hammer. Uh-huh...

I taped off fret board, used black marker, crowning file, 800, 1200, 1500 grit

sandpaper and 0000 steel wool - file, file, file, sand, sand, sand, polish, etc.

Removed all hammer enhancements, no more strings DRAGGING on frets,

no fret buzz, nice and shiny now! Maybe I should change my name to

Lex Luthier... I'm a "shade-tree" gitar tech now!!! [/quote']For a final finish I use some polishing compound on a felt bob in a dremel. It makes the frets like glass, smooth as silk.

[Dave]

I watched an episode of "How's It Made?" last night that featured the Godin factory. When it came to fret installation and dressing, they used the magic marker method, followed by a fine sandpaper covered metal rod rubbed lengthwide up and down the fretboard to smooth the sanding marks, then a polish. They did use a digital dial caliper type guage attached to a long bar to adjust the fretboard perfectly flat using the truss rod. There was no crowning file involved and the frets appeared to have the flat profile that we see on the Gibsons after the dressing was complete, not the round or angular crown that we see performed on custom fret jobs. BTW, the crafstmen in this video were definitely of American origin, not Asian, FWIW.

 

After two years of hard use and aggressive bends and vibrato, my main Epi shows no evidence of pitting or wear. I do occassionally feel that scratchy feeling that Marx spoke of in another thread, but it is usually on a fret that I don't use that much and it goes away after a few bends in that area. I chalk it up to break-in in that area and don't feel it again on that fret.

[animalfarm]

Dave wrote: "I watched an episode of "How's It Made?" last night that featured the Godin factory.",

" They did use a digital dial caliper type guage attached to a long bar to adjust the fretboard

perfectly flat using the truss rod."

 

Awwwww, CR@P!!! How did I miss that ????? I also watched an episode of "Some Assembly Required"

(similar show, same parent channel?, 30 mins) featuring the GIBSON guitar factory. The "host" of the show

built HIS OWN LES PAUL from the initial gluing of the body wood, making body blank, shaping, etc.

all the way thru painting it, polishing, and first playing. The camera crew just followed him around

while he went from station to station and did his work under the direction of Gibson employees.

And of course, he did receive his FREE FREE FREE Les Paul...

[theDeuce]

 

+1

 

You can't be afraid to play the thing! Even expensive instruments require re-fretting at some point' date=' depending on how hard you play them.[/quote']

 

fzrkev, Robin/hood,

to borrow a phrase from another forum member, play it like you stole it.

 

These are mass produced products that are not to be put on a pedestal and worshipped. They will serve your purpose well.

[animalfarm]

Warmoth Direct is a good starting point for fret material, specs and info, and

they supply the "GOLD" frets I desire for my dream do it yourself guitar...

 

[RobinTheHood]

Eguitarnut, I play it like I stole it every day. I have cheap guitars for the most part and am not particularly concerned with fret wear to that degree. I just want the facts.

 

StevenLister brings up a good point. If different grades of fret wire material do indeed exist, why cant we buy these different grades from a luthier supplier?

 

But, if there is one thing I do know from experience at my own job, is that cost cutting starts at the bottom of the chain and works it's way up. We may use technically the same grade or standard of materials as we did 15 years ago, but our suppliers' suppliers' supply of the raw materials are always changing and being reformulated to make them more cost effective. And it slowly works it's way up from there. So even though we may technically be using the same material for the same product as 15 years ago, it really isnt quite the same quality or standard it was initially...and we run into conversion problems and end-user complaints quite often due to this...even though our methods of manufacturing stay consistent for the most part.

I can see this being the same in all manufactururing situations over a period of time.

[gibplayer]

MarxBros reply = "it's so b/c we say it is." Hiding the ball yet again behind belittling comments.

How much $$ have you made from all those re-fret jobs (MarxBros says he's done "fret jobs like I have for over 20 years..."). Your real motives are suspect.

 

The ball is still with you soft fretters....

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby...' date=' I'm going to play on:-"

[/quote']

 

I doubt Marx Bros has ever even done any fret work on a guitar. His whole arguement seems made up to me, especially when you read him making sweeping generalizations like this:

 

Here's the facts:

 

The import Grover tuners are not as good as USA ones.

 

Import mahogany is not as good.

 

Import rosewood or "ebony" is not as good.

 

Import pots are not as good.

 

Import wiring is not as good.

 

Import pickups are not as good.

 

Import hardware is not as good.

 

Import fretwork AND fretwire is not as good.

 

Most of the above has to be imported anyway, woods especially and, in the global economy, most likely virtually all of the raw materials used to make up the electrics/components, if they're not imported ready made.

 

He just doesn't come across as a credible source of information. He can probably barely dress himself, let alone the frets on a guitar.

 

OK, let's entertain the idea that he's some master luthier. Perhaps the reason that the frets seem harder to him when he 'dresses' a Gibson compared to an Epi is that he's been using that damned cheap imported sandpaper on the Gibsons again. Everybody's favorite B&W movie comic could easily get his cheap imported and expensive USA sandpapers mixed up.

 

Remember folks:

 

Import sandpaper is not as good

[MarxBros]

 

blah blah blah...blather blather blather...I speak but say nothing....

Remember folks:

 

I'm epiplayer...and I'm clueless

 

 

 

:D

[gibplayer]

How very Nelson/Marxesque when you're done with repeating the same unsubstantiated view ten times already.

 

Yes, I was merely emulating your approach to this, but providing the counter arguement.

 

You know what they say.........

 

......if the cap fits.....

[MarxBros]

How very Nelson/Marxesque when you're done with repeating the same unsubstantiated view ten times already.

 

Yes' date=' I was merely emulating your approach to this, but providing the counter arguement.

 

You know what they say.........

 

......if the cap fits.....

 

[/quote']You really are a waste of bandwidth.

[gibplayer]

This is classic Nelson behavior.

 

The more I see of this approach, the more I am convinced that Nelson and Marx are indeed one and the same.