Who makes a good vintage style P-90?

[Anthony_JB]

So, I just deposited my financial aid refund from college and I've got a lot of money.

 

Seeing how I'm making good progress with my Casino as far as sanding it goes..

 

I want to get some darn good pickups in it. But honestly, there are just so many different P90's out there.

 

Duncans, Armstrongs, Lollars, Fralins..

 

Has anyone replaced stock epiphone P-90s with any of these boutique P90s? How do they sound? What are their characteristics?

[Guest]

Anthony you should PM twofeets before you go swapping your stock P90's twofeets is gigging with his on regular basis and sees no need to swap em out.....what is the problem

 

These are quotes from twofeets from another thread....

 

I'm really excited about my ES295 and the stock pickups. I don't find them wanting at all, and I'm sort of a tinkerer with stuff like that. I also have a friend who is a luthier and repairman who has a ZBD and he feels the same way about the stock pickups... and that guy swaps out the pickups on EVERYTHING.

 

I'd think twice before getting into swapping out the pickups - the stock Epi Alnico P90's are actually pretty good. I just took delivery of a used ES-295 (also Peerless made) and was fully expecting to start the search for pickups right away. I gigged it the other night though and it sounded great with the stock pickups!

 

I pick up a Zephyr Blues Deluxe in 10 days I love the way the stock pickups sound...

 

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[Vic Flick]

So' date=' I just deposited my financial aid refund from college and I've got a lot of money.

 

Seeing how I'm making good progress with my Casino as far as sanding it goes..

 

I want to get some darn good pickups in it. But honestly, there are just so many different P90's out there.

 

Duncans, Armstrongs, Lollars, Fralins..

 

Has anyone replaced stock epiphone P-90s with any of these boutique P90s? How do they sound? What are their characteristics?[/quote']

 

I used the Kent Armstrongs on a Casino I restored, they were very good. And they're designed to fit the Casino, correct height and all that jazz...

[TP]

Count me as another who has discovered how great the stock P90's are. Last week I picked up my Casino from my local tech who installed a complete new wiring harness for my 1996 Peerless Casino.... HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!! I can't see any reason to swap out the Epi P90's now. I would upgrade wiring first if you haven't already, and see how you like it.

[Vic Flick]

Anthony you should PM twofeets before you go swapping your stock P90's is gigging with his on regular basis and see no need to swap em out.....what is the problem...

 

The Epi P-90s are pretty good sounding pups, but they're hotter than the vintage P-90s. If I remember correctly, they're about 12k whereas the vintage specs should be around 7-8k. A lot of Casino owners are looking to get as close as possible to that vintage vibe (i.e. Beatles tone) and feel the stock pups are a little too modern (hot) sounding.

 

Realistically, the Armstrongs are excellent, but you'll never really get a standard MIC/MIK Casino to sound exactly like a vintage Casino due to the construction of the body. It just doesn't vibrate the same way. OTOH, the Elitist & Lennon models are constructed like the vintage Casinos and come equipped with USA pickups, so they do a great job of capturing that desired tone.

[twofeets]

I'm on the road at the moment, but I'll definitely chime in tonight with thoughts on the various P90 offerings out there, as well as the stock Epi pickups. I'm a little bit of a P90 addict. LOL.

[Guest]

I'm on the road at the moment' date=' but I'll definitely chime in tonight with thoughts on the various P90 offerings out there, as well as the stock Epi pickups. I'm a little bit of a P90 addict. LOL.[/quote']

 

Good man...also Smips is asking about the Seymour Duncan staple P90's have you tried them out.....

[twofeets]

I personally have not tried the staples but there's a review in this month or last month's Vintage Guitar mag about the Duncan staples in the humbucker size. (Phat Staple)

 

The only other stap I know of is made by Thorn Guitars. Both the Duncan and the Thorn are on the pricey side.

[smips65]

So' date=' I just deposited my financial aid refund from college and I've got a lot of money.

 

Seeing how I'm making good progress with my Casino as far as sanding it goes..

 

I want to get some darn good pickups in it. But honestly, there are just so many different P90's out there.

 

Duncans, Armstrongs, Lollars, Fralins..

 

Has anyone replaced stock epiphone P-90s with any of these boutique P90s? How do they sound? What are their characteristics?[/quote']

 

 

Let me know if your interested...

 

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/msg/1674485874.html

[smips65]

Good man...also Smips is asking about the Seymour Duncan staple P90's have you tried them out.....

 

 

http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/custom-shop/specialized-1/staple_pickup_r/

 

Not to hijack your thread too much.... :-

 

 

The history I've learned on these' date=' as compared to the original P-90's is as follows:

 

The P-90 magnet, is in pieces, not one solid bar, the Staple magnet is a solid one piece, and polished.

 

Alnico V, in the staple, don't know what Alnico is within the P-90....

 

I'm just dying to get this tone, and sound...

This is an original "staple" from Gibson, so I'm not sure if the S-Duncan would be as good, but can't find one of these without buying the whole guitar, and those cost more than my house.....

 

 

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[Anthony_JB]

I agree with the general consensus that the Epiphone P90's aren't bad pickups. They really aren't! But, now that I have an awesome tube amp, an Epiphone Casino that's being refinished and completely stripped down, and some cash to throw around I want to put something that's close to vintage specifications on my Casino.

 

Smips! Thanks for the offer, I might take them off your hands if you can ship? I also want to do some research on my options as well.

[TP]

Let me know if your interested...

 

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/msg/1674485874.html

 

 

Dang, I have been drooling over those since you posted them on CL!!! I was wondering if they might fit a Casino, but since I have no extra bucks after the wiring upgrade currently, I haven't jumped on them or contacted you.

 

Maybe a good thing because, since getting the new electronics harness installed my Leonard Shapiro, I haven't been drooling quite as much as my Casino's tone has improved greatly. (They still make me drool though as they would complete my Black theme on my Casino. I wanted to match my Epi Bigsby and headstock so I put nice Black/Silver Top Hat knobs on the new pots.)

 

I hope they go to a good home!

[smips65]

Dang' date=' I have been drooling over those since you posted them on CL!!! [/quote']

 

 

 

 

Those are not mine, but I can look and get them if another member here wants them, as is of course.

 

this was part of my puzzle, I could get these for 110, or the staple, for 50, which unfortunately has been snatched up, prolly by someone perusing this forum.....

[twofeets]

It's almost 1 AM EST and I just got in so I'll offer a few brief notes and elaborate later:

 

I've been a P90 guy pretty much since I started playing guitar 20 years ago. My first real guitar was a 1974 Les Paul Special 55 reissue with the wraparound tailpiece and P90's. I've had several others since then.

 

A few years back, I wandered into Guitar Den (RIP) in Orlando, FL and spotted an import Casino on the wall with peculiarly black dogear P90's. It was the only P90 hollowbody in the store at the time so I plugged it in. I was completely blown away - it had *the* P90 tone I had been looking for. Just enough grind and a woody midrange honk with a hornlike quality to it. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. (just as a point of reference, my playing and taste run towards vintage jump blues and R&B stuff from the late 40's through the 50's, and also some rockabilly). I HAD to know what those pickups were. The answer: Duncan Antiquities. I ordered some from Guitar Heaven the next day and had them in my Fatdog archtop within a week and a half. They were really very, very good. If you are dead set on replacing your pickups, I don't think you can go wrong with these. The Alnico II magnets I think make them pretty special. I know the Duncan name has lost some of its romance with all of the boutique makers on the market these days.. but all I know, it was a great sounding guitar.

 

When you say "vintage-style" though you have to remember to take into consideration that P90's have been in production for a very long time and they have changed a bit through different eras. 1950's P90's to my ears, for example, are more woody and refined sounding, while 1960's P90's are a little more aggressive. I had a 1951 ES350 and also a 1966 ES125CD (full-body, like a 50's ES175). They were really completely different sounding animals. I preferred the 1951 for my own preferences... would still own it if the economy hadn't tanked.

Here's a couple of pics... maybe a little OT but just as a frame of reference for what I've used for comparison.

 

 

 

More random thoughts on Casinos, P90's, etc. tomorrow when I'm not so tired and shagged out.

[peeper]

 

 

What the hell do you call that finish? Is there a story there? Repairs?

[twofeets]

Probably a combination of poor photography and cheap camera plus the was the finish was weathered and exposed over the years. That guitar was vey heavily weatherchecked, too. Didn't show any evidence of overspray. The ES350 however was a non-pro refin in kind of a matte sunburst.

[twofeets]

Regarding Casinos:

My previous statement about Epi P90’s was based on my experience with the MIK stuff as found in some Peerless-made archtops like my ES295 and other peoples’ Zephyr Blues Deluxes, etc.  There are physical differences between the MIK and the MIC Casinos that stretch beyond a subjective “one is better than the other.”  The headstock attachment point on the MIC Casino is in a completely different spot, for instance, and the joint is totally different from the MIK guitars.   They appear to be using a different species or quality of wood.  The neck profiles are different, with the MIK being more of a medium C with a taper, and the MIC being more clublike (which definitely appeals to the “big neck” crowd).  The finish has changed from a slightly aged caramel to almost a straight clear finish.  Finally, the MIC Casino uses different pickups from the MIK version.  You can tell because all of the MIC Casinos (at least the ones I’ve seen) do *not* have that signature, angled neck pickup cover.  I have only limited experience with the MIC pickups so I can’t really comment on how good they might be.   

 

OK – here are some thoughts on P90’s:

Regarding the “budget import boutique” pickups out there – many of the manufacturers of these products are also making pickups for major manufacturers.  I consider most of them to be a sideways step from what you would already have in your offshore guitar.  I don’t think any of them are necessarily bad, I just don’t find most of them to be particularly memorable or much of an upgrade.   I had Armstrongs in my Fatdog archtop when I got it.  They were like plain vanilla ice cream – they were OK, just nothing really special.  (not to mention, the Armstrong P90’s according to WD Music’s website are like $72/ea, and this is for a MIK pickup?)  Tried a couple of other similar makers and ended up spending more money tinkering around than I would have just purchasing an expensive boutique set to begin with (I ended up with the aforementioned Antiquities – which incidentally I felt sounded quite close to the real ones in my ES350).   There seems to be a misconception that a strong reading on the multimeter means you’ll be getting decent tone.  Lots of these pickups are just fine in the output category, but tonally I feel they don’t have much character.   I fully expected the stock pickups in my ES295 to be “more of the same” but I was pleasantly surprised, they’re much better than I expected.   Does that mean they’re the best I’ve ever heard or that I won’t try something new eventually?   Admittedly, probably not, but they absolutely sound good enough to where a swap is not on top of my list of “needs” right now.   

 

It’s not really fair or accurate to make any kind of blanket statement about any of the pickup manufacturers out there.  You can’t just say “Fralins sound like this, Lollars sound like that” because each maker offers so many different options and winds, different magnet combinations.  Many will wind to your own desired specs.  It used to be that when you bought a Duncan, you bought a Duncan, and that was it.  Not so much anymore.   To further confuse the issue, there are SO many people making P90’s (or any pickup for that matter) these days, with many of them shooting for a vintage reproduction… On one hand, it’s nice to have options, but on the other hand, it can be really frustrating because there are so many variables to consider and an infinite number of combinations. I’m willing to bet lots of these guys use the same suppliers for their parts, too, and I know that lots of them learned how to wind pickups from Jason Lollar’s book.  So, we have many people using the same techniques and the same parts with the same end result in mind.   IMO it’s gotten to a point where the name really doesn’t matter so much as the willingness of the supplier to help guide you toward the tone you’re hearing in your head, and also the price.   

 

Start your search by compiling a list of recordings of known P90 tones you’re looking to get.   There are literally DOZENS of smaller builders out there that you can communicate with via email or even by phone; let them know what you’re trying to achieve.   Most of them will be very willing to work with you and even help make changes if what you’ve received isn’t what you had in mind.  Some of them like Vintage Vibe even give you several sets of magnets of different material that you can experiment.   I have had my eye on Heywood pickups (by Hoagland brothers guitars).  They advertise on eBay and offer very reasonably priced pups as well as rewinds.  Lots of magnet options and they’ll wind ‘em how you want ‘em.  

 

My personal preference for P90’s – a neck pickup somewhere around 8.0 to 8.5 K and a bridge pickup about 12-15% overwound but not to exceed 9.5k (at the absolute highest – any higher than that and I think they start to get too mids-heavy and lose highs).  The hotter bridge pickup is nice to have.  Also, if you do not use a lot of gain where you might experience squealing, my personal recommendation is that you not have them potted.  I feel like potting robs these of some character and not potting them adds a certain “breathiness” to the pickup, a slight microphonic quality which I find appealing.  I’m not a believer in underwinding P90’s, either, which seems to be a popular option.  It’s true that there were some vintage pickups were that way, but I feel like they come up somewhat short tonally.  Not midrangey enough, not enough oomph – to me they start to sound more like a Guild “Franz” pickup or Dearmond, or maybe a bigger Tele pickup, but not a true P90.  

 

My favorite P90 ever, in the bridge position of my goldtop LP, was wound by a small maker I found on Ebay about 5 years ago who has since quit the business.   It’s unpotted, comes in at about 9.2k, compliments the 8.2k Gibson P90 I have in the neck position nicely.  I paid $45 for it.