peyotepal Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Hey all, I picked up this Gibson/Epiphone Les Paul at a charity auction about 6 years ago, since then it's hardly been out of it's case. Been playing it the last couple of days and blown away by the quality. So now I'd like to know as much about it as possible; how old, history, approximate value, any anecdotes etc As the images show the headstock has 'Epiphone', 'Les Paul Model', and 'Gibson' on the front, with the serial '106188' and 'made in Japan' on the back. It's been suggested to me that it dates back to the late 70's but it just seems to be in too good condition to be that old. It really is a lovely guitar, with a new pickup at the bridge I reckon it would K.A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Moore Tribute Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Lucky you These are the 2nd generation Gibson copies made by Epiphone in Japan between 1970 & 79 (Pre 1970 they where made in the USA) I suspect this is a 70-72 model (dating on Japan models is next to useless) as its almost exactly as Gibson would have made them pre 1970 with no modification of the headstock that comes along a little later. (Some have heastocks like the "Chord" make with a bulge instead of the book shape) The retail on these is GOOD, their worth £800-£1,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigneil Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I would also suggest Japanese 1970s. very nice. I have never played one, but they are renowned to be of a excellent quality and score quite high MOJO points. If that was my guitar, I'd play it every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peyotepal Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share Posted May 3, 2011 Wow thanks very much indeed, can't believe it's older than me! Amazing, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I'm a little skeptical of the year. IIRC, Epiphone didnt make the Les Paul in the 70's. The oldest Epiphone LPs that I am aware of are the LP 1,2,&3 from 1985-1988. They were Korean bolt-necks with Epi super-strat hardware configurations. Yours looks like the Japanese market Elitist 1950's Flametop model, but the headstock is a little different. Maybe Pete.R will know for sure. If there is such a thing as a 1970's Gibson-copy Epiphone Les Paul, I'd really like some specs and further proof for the wiki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigneil Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I'm a little skeptical of the year. IIRC, Epiphone didnt make the Les Paul in the 70's. The oldest Epiphone LPs that I am aware of are the LP 1,2,&3 from 1985-1988. They were Korean bolt-necks with Epi super-strat hardware configurations. Yours looks like the Japanese market Elitist 1950's Flametop model, but the headstock is a little different. Maybe Pete.R will know for sure. If there is such a thing as a 1970's Gibson-copy Epiphone Les Paul, I'd really like some specs and further proof for the wiki. RTH! i think you are right....again. After reading your post, i did a little googling and have learned that the MIJ epiphone LPs were more or less a continuation of the Orville line. the plot thickens MIJ epiphone LPs of this type Have open book headstock, have made in japan on the back of the headstock, and were in production from 1998-2006 at the Fujigen plant. It seems far more likely that Peyotpals guitar is one of these. trying to get an accurate date from the serial number can be an art form unto itself. I don't know for sure... this is my best guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 RTH! i think you are right....again. After reading your post, i did a little googling and have learned that the MIJ epiphone LPs were more or less a continuation of the Orville line. the plot thickens MIJ epiphone LPs of this type Have open book headstock, have made in japan on the back of the headstock, and were in production from 1998-2006 at the Fujigen plant. It seems far more likely that Peyotpals guitar is one of these. trying to get an accurate date from the serial number can be an art form unto itself. I don't know for sure... this is my best guess I was aware of the japanese market SGs, but I wasnt sure if they made an LP as well. The headstock looks correct for the Fujigen models. The Japanese Elitists have a wider, more Gibson-like headstock. I think you are correct, bigneil. Another one for the wiki as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Perhaps JOE JAPAN might know something about this. He seems to know a lot about Japanese guitar making. But, not that MY memory is anything like historically accurate, but I seem to remember seeing one like that, but I am pretty sure it would have been no later than the mid nineties. Possibly (if memory serves) the late eighties/very eary nineties. I seem to remember it about the same time that I saw the first Epi LP's with the current headstock shape in the Guitar Center stores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supersonic Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 The oldest Epiphone LPs that I am aware of are the LP 1,2,&3 from 1985-1988. I don't have a pic or a link, but I'm almost 100% positive I've seen a pic of Keith Richards taken in the 60's playing an Epi LP Standard with a Bigsby. I don't know if was just a rare issue or something, but I think I saw the pic in the book "Rolling with the Stones" by Bill Wyman. If I remember correctly, the caption for the pic even pointed out that was an Epi. This doesn't have much to do with the original post of this thread, but I just thought I'd mention it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peyotepal Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 Well at least i've come up with a genuine head-scratcher! The thing is I've owned and played guitars of many different makes/models/years/qualities over the years, and this one just 'feels' top quality, and it sounds great. So even if this is some kind of bizarre knock-off it's still a bloody good instrument..... is a fake that's just as good as the original still a fake!? Maybe some kind of limited run or 'not for general sale'? I should also add that the finish is absolutely gorgeous, nothing like anything I've ever seen on cheap gitars. It looks more red in the photos because of the flash but it's actually gorgeous and deep. I bought it thinking it was a basic late 90s cheap Epiphone Les Paul give-to-your-nephew kinda guitar, but looking at the aging on the words 'treble' and 'rhythm' it's gotta be at least 20 years old. I reckon no matter how old it is it's been encased for all but one of those years. But still a mystery.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaSTuS Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 MIJ guitars are just as good, if not better than most MIAs IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 MIJ guitars are just as good, if not better than most MIAs IMHO. If the MIJs were a continuation of the Orville line, like bigniel said, then yeah. Built to or near Gibson specs, it will be heads above the Korean and Chinese models. Its definitely a keeper. You see Fujigen SGs pop up around here every so often, but this is the first LP I've seen. I'm curious as to what the pickups are. That would probably solve the mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaSTuS Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 If the MIJs were a continuation of the Orville line, like bigniel said, then yeah. Built to or near Gibson specs, it will be heads above the Korean and Chinese models. Its definitely a keeper. You see Fujigen SGs pop up around here every so often, but this is the first LP I've seen. I'm curious as to what the pickups are. That would probably solve the mystery. I wasn't referring to this guitar in particular Rob, or just Epiphone/Gibson brands, I meant it in a general sense, that this seems to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 I wasn't referring to this guitar in particular Rob, or just Epiphone/Gibson brands, I meant it in a general sense, that this seems to be the case. Yeah, the Japanese make great guitars. And highly sought after as well. Not so sure about those Teiscos though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Moore Tribute Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Well at least i've come up with a genuine head-scratcher! But still a mystery.... I'm not being funny but those images SCREAM "Gibson Parts" I pritty certain the Bridge is a ABR1, and the sizes match all the parts on mine (The toggle isn't a Switchcraft but I'm not sure when they came in) I would like to see the pickups but I'm betting their Burstbucker 1 & 2's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 I don't have a pic or a link, but I'm almost 100% positive I've seen a pic of Keith Richards taken in the 60's playing an Epi LP Standard with a Bigsby. I don't know if was just a rare issue or something, but I think I saw the pic in the book "Rolling with the Stones" by Bill Wyman. If I remember correctly, the caption for the pic even pointed out that was an Epi. This doesn't have much to do with the original post of this thread, but I just thought I'd mention it. The proof is in the pudding. If you find it, post it or a link to it. That would be interesting, for sure. I know that there were Matsumoku Flying-Vs and, I think, Explorers. There was also an Epiphone Matsumoku-made BC Rich B!tch copy as well. Finding info on that era is very difficult. I would like to see the pickups but I'm betting their Burstbucker 1 & 2's Me too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 there is no way this gtr is from the 70s. its absolutely from the 90s or 00s, from epiphone-japan. @ ORVILLE BY GIBSON (1988-1997?) @ EPIPHONE JAPAN (1999?-2006?) @ EPIPHONE ELITEST (200?-2011-) Thanks for that! Thats what I was thinking. Probably Epiphone Japan 1999-2006. IIRC, the Orvilles will say "Orville" On the headstock. And the headstock is wrong for the Elitist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Moore Tribute Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Good info I have to agree the Japan made stuff is great quality Problem is they release these in VERY small numbers to the world. Finding my Mustang was a well you get the idea... Well made and plays great too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Reading up a little based on what JOE JAPAN has said, I am pretty sure that guitar is from the FujiGen factory. A couple clues: the "made in japan" printing looks to be the same writing as the early FujiGen Fenders. The finish also looks to be the same quality. Also, The FujiGen factory was the factory who made the Orville Gibsons before the Orville brand was ended for these in favor of the Epiphone Brand. At this time, The FujiGen factory began making the Epiphone brand taking over from the Orville brand. Same factory, in other words. It appears as well that one of the reasons that Fender started using another factory for it's japanese guitars (the "crafted in Japan" labeled) is the result of the FujiGen factory tooling up to make Gibsons. Personally, I think that is a seriously cool thing to have a Gibson (Epi) from that factory. The FujiGen factory is HIGHLY regarded for it's Fenders, and played a significant part in the quality of Fender guitars when the factory was closed for a period in the post CBS restructuring. The FujiGen Fenders were made to such an exacting spec and so well that Fender in the states was able to use them to relearn how to make Fenders for the American made lines, which they based on Vintage specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Reading up a little based on what JOE JAPAN has said, I am pretty sure that guitar is from the FujiGen factory. A couple clues: the "made in japan" printing looks to be the same writing as the early FujiGen Fenders. The finish also looks to be the same quality. Also, The FujiGen factory was the factory who made the Orville Gibsons before the Orville brand was ended for these in favor of the Epiphone Brand. At this time, The FujiGen factory began making the Epiphone brand taking over from the Orville brand. Same factory, in other words. It appears as well that one of the reasons that Fender started using another factory for it's japanese guitars (the "crafted in Japan" labeled) is the result of the FujiGen factory tooling up to make Gibsons. Personally, I think that is a seriously cool thing to have a Gibson (Epi) from that factory. The FujiGen factory is HIGHLY regarded for it's Fenders, and played a significant part in the quality of Fender guitars when the factory was closed for a period in the post CBS restructuring. The FujiGen Fenders were made to such an exacting spec and so well that Fender in the states was able to use them to relearn how to make Fenders for the American made lines, which they based on Vintage specs. Welcome to yesterday! Just kidding. I think we are all in agreeance that it is a Fujigen Epiphone. JOE JAPAN pretty much nailed it down for us. Its definately not an Orville, and the headstock is wrong for an Elitist. That leaves Fujigen. I've been GASsing a little for a Fujigen SG since discovering them on this forum a few years ago. A few members bought them and love them to pieces. Heck, any Japanese Epi would be a good score. Hard to come by, for sure. Thanks for that Fender info. I didnt realize they used Fujigen as well. I'll have to keep my eye out for one when I finally upgrade from a Squire to a Fender. Soon hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peyotepal Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 Thanks everyone, really interesting stuff. I've gotta say I bought this in '05 and it looked least ten years old then, but more likely older. I can't see it being from the late 90s or early 00s. But then I'm no expert as is blatantly obvious... The case (which I assume is original) has a large epiphone 'E' on the front Here is a close up of the pickups (please excuse dodgy focus), nothing printed or engraved on them as you can see... Anyway I have emailed the serial to Epiphone so maybe they will be able to lock it down (unless it's a fake/copy of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peyotepal Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 service.japan@gibson.com any question about the japan limited models both gibson and epiphone, you should email gibson-japan. joe. Thanks Joe, I also followed your other links and have contacted Mr Yamauchi, determined to get to the bottom of this now! Should we all start looking for 'FujiGen' guitars on ebay!? It's really interesting, when i was in my teens it was all about 'Authentic American' and I even had friends try to scratch off the 'made in japan' print on their telecasters hehehe!! Glad to see everyone is a bit more open-minded now, after all it's the sound that matters.....plenty of masters out there perfected their sound on homemade guitars cobbled together from whatever was available... And the more time I spend with this thing the more I love it, perhaps the story is what really makes an instrument.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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