davidl Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I have a wonderful 12 string acoustic that just doesn't sound right through my Marshall 501 but would like the option of plugging into something. I'm torn between buying a dedicated acoustic amp or just going for a small PA and micing the guitar. I could also plug in an electric piano for my wife or some other device like an mp3 or CD player. I'm leaning toward the PA. I use a 300 watt Yamaha Stagepass at work once in a while for meetings and have tried it at home and its pretty cool. Very basic but I think that's all I need. Any advice or recommendations? I'm not looking at spending a huge bundle. Probably no more than 6 or 7 hundred cdn. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 You have nice acoustics Dave.......I recommend a dedicated acoustic amp.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Great idea to amp your 12 str IMX there are a few options As suggested....mic the guitar Or, as I do try a soundhole pickup....some are really excellent Remember to balance input levels...inst vs mic/line Consider a DI box into the PA....necessary if you put an inst. level straight into a PA.... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidl Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Thanks guys. I have a funny feeling that I'll end up buying both. Amp first as I can keep the Stagepass and SM58 mics and stands at home for now if I want. I'm the keeper of all things IT and AV at the office. I just prefer not to borrow stuff if I don't have to. I also have a DI box with switching capabilities from 0db for guitars etc to -20db for piano's, cd's... and -40db for speaker feeds. Now to decide on an amp suitable for small venues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShredAstaire Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I've heard really good things about the Fishman acoustic soundhole pickups...dunno much aboot em myself but heard very good reviews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidl Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Great idea to amp your 12 str IMX there are a few options As suggested....mic the guitar Or, as I do try a soundhole pickup....some are really excellent Remember to balance input levels...inst vs mic/line Consider a DI box into the PA....necessary if you put an inst. level straight into a PA.... V [/quote The Guild already has a fishman pickup in it. I failed to mention that it is an acoustic electric. All good advice. Appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Since Milod hasn't responded yet[biggrin] I would recommend the PA. It might be a bit more set-up wise but it will provide more options for you in the future. I would recommend something like a Mackie 808S ( not sure if they make these anymore) but I have one. If you get a powered PA head I would get one that can be ran in Stereo or bridged Mono, has built in effects, a line level out and a couple effects Sends. This will allow a multitude of configurations as well as future expansion. Depending on your situation or gig/ size of the venue you could run it mono/bridged to supply full power to Front of House and Chain a feed off to provide an onstage monitoring for your self, or use the line out and run it into a small stage mixer and a couple of powered speakers for monitors etc... In stereo mode you could run half the power say left and use that to send to front of house ( mains ) and use the right side as a separate on stage monitor mix. You could also use it this way if you just wanted to use it as an instrument PA use the left side as a dedicated keyboard amp/mix and the right side as a dedicated Acoustic guitar amp/mix. With the PA head you could also run your Piezo bridge pickup out into one of the PA channels and have a separate sound hole mic channel ( and even an ambient off set mic channel) and blend the two/three together to get an amazingly full acoustic sound. If it has line outs and Aux Sends you can keep expanding and creating more dedicated and isolated mixes for vocals and other instruments... Summary: Acoustic Amplifier Pros: - Usually Portable (combo format) - Ease of use - Some Versatility depending on what you get Acoustic Amplifier Cons: - Usually limited head room - Mainly dedicated to 1 to 2 Instruments or Instrument/Vocal - Not as versatile for different/combined or future expansion Powered PA Head Pros: - Still pretty portable ( depending on the monitors you get) - Multitude of uses and configurations - Capability for future expansion - Usually much higher head room Powered PA Head Cons: - Might require a bit more tweaking - Might be a little higher priced depending on if you buy new or used - Your musician friends will want to borrow it. My 2 C's Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidl Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Since Milod hasn't responded yet[biggrin] I would recommend the PA. It might be a bit more set-up wise but it will provide more options for you in the future. I would recommend something like a Mackie 808S ( not sure if they make these anymore) but I have one. If you get a powered PA head I would get one that can be ran in Stereo or bridged Mono, has built in effects, a line level out and a couple effects Sends. This will allow a multitude of configurations as well as future expansion. Depending on your situation or gig/ size of the venue you could run it mono/bridged to supply full power to Front of House and Chain a feed off to provide an onstage monitoring for your self, or use the line out and run it into a small stage mixer and a couple of powered speakers for monitors etc... In stereo mode you could run half the power say left and use that to send to front of house ( mains ) and use the right side as a separate on stage monitor mix. You could also use it this way if you just wanted to use it as an instrument PA use the left side as a dedicated keyboard amp/mix and the right side as a dedicated Acoustic guitar amp/mix. With the PA head you could also run your Piezo bridge pickup out into one of the PA channels and have a separate sound hole mic channel ( and even an ambient off set mic channel) and blend the two/three together to get an amazingly full acoustic sound. If it has line outs and Aux Sends you can keep expanding and creating more dedicated and isolated mixes for vocals and other instruments... Summary: Acoustic Amplifier Pros: - Usually Portable (combo format) - Ease of use - Some Versatility depending on what you get Acoustic Amplifier Cons: - Usually limited head room - Mainly dedicated to 1 to 2 Instruments or Instrument/Vocal - Not as versatile for different/combined or future expansion Powered PA Head Pros: - Still pretty portable ( depending on the monitors you get) - Multitude of uses and configurations - Capability for future expansion - Usually much higher head room Powered PA Head Cons: - Might require a bit more tweaking - Might be a little higher priced depending on if you buy new or used - Your musician friends will want to borrow it. My 2 C's Andy Great info Andy. I'm a little afraid of overkill. I only play in public once or twice a year at cottage parties and stuff. I'm not a regular gigging musician but I am slowly setting up a pretty decent little studio/bar/playroom in a building next to the house. About 500 square feet with a 14 foot ceiling. I'm in a country setting so noise isn't an issue. For expansion, I have access to a Behringer 24 channel passive mixer with a few 500 watt powered speakers if necessary. I have a lot to learn about mixers. They intimidate me a little. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl00dsm0k3 Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 iif it dont sound right play it threw the pa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Fender has some nice portable all in one PA systems..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Great info Andy. I'm a little afraid of overkill. I only play in public once or twice a year at cottage parties and stuff. I'm not a regular gigging musician but I am slowly setting up a pretty decent little studio/bar/playroom in a building next to the house. About 500 square feet with a 14 foot ceiling. I'm in a country setting so noise isn't an issue. For expansion, I have access to a Behringer 24 channel passive mixer with a few 500 watt powered speakers if necessary. I have a lot to learn about mixers. They intimidate me a little. Dave Well there ya go. I would still go with a PA head and a Full range Speaker. Easy as Acoustic Amp setup even if you don't use all the bells and whistles you still have something that will provide you a much better sound for your acoustic. Don't be afraid of mixers... Just remember that 90% of the knobs are just duplicates for each channel. If you visualize them in isolated sections they are much less intimidating Here is a brief little run down. A channel is a Pre-amp section just like the front of your amplifier It can be broken into a couple of sections Channel ( preamp section ) Input usually an XLR for Microphone or Balanced 1/4 inch ( same as an xlr cable but in the form of 1/4 inch. It has an extra wire running through it like XLR) a mute button - Pretty Obvious a Solo button - Allows you to just hear that channel without having to mute the rest A fader ( volume control for the channel output to the main ouput) Gain Control ( amount of level you are sending to the front of the input of the channel before any EQ or Fader level) a pre/post fade button ( this is usually tied to the aux send and the mute ) So you can tap into the signal before the fader or after it. A balance control ( In a stereo setup it can be used just like balance on any stereo device) In a mono set-up it can be used to assign the channel to a Subgroup output ( more on that later) "Sub out" selection button ( varies on the amount of subgroup outs the board has) A "Pad" button cuts the input level on the channel if the input instrument has a very hot signal that you can't prevent from clipping by turning the gain all the way down EQ Section This can have more or less knobs depending on the board. Basic setup is a fixed bass Frequency range say 180hz and down that you can control how much you cut or boost on the channel with the bass knob. A sweepable Mid-Range allows you to adjust the the frequency range you want to select and then another knob you use to adjust how much you want to cut or boost on the channel. A treble knob that is usually a cut boost for a fixed high frequency range. Depending on the Board you will have a lot more control ( knobs ) to dial in the EQ with A low frequency cut button. Usually applied on Channels with Vocal mics or instruments that don't produce frequencies below 100hz or so ( prevents unnecessary low end rumble or feedback) Auxiliary sends ( amount varies by board) Can be used to send the channel output to an effect or used to create a separate monitor mix. Depending what you have hooked up to the corresponding main Aux Send/Return on the Boards Master Ouput Section ( more later) Channel Insert allows you to insert an effect ( usually a compressor, limiter, noise gate) between the channels output and the boards master output. Phantom power allows the channel to provide a voltage signal to a Condenser microphone. Once you Examine a channel and figure out what all the channel capabilities/functions are you can pretty much ignore 90% of the rest of the board because almost every channel is going to just be a repeat. So we covered the primary input/preamp section of the mixing board now to the Output Section. Basic Output Section Depending on the board you might have a number of subgroups with knobs or sliders. The subgroups allow you to assign and send certain individual input/preamp channels and combine them onto one controllable fader. So say you have a drum set that has a kick on channel 1 a snare on channel 2 a Highhat on channel 3 Toms on channel 4,5,6, and over heads for the cymbals on channels 7 and 8. You would want to set the individual channel faders to produce an overall drum mix so that everything is at an equal and balanced volume level. Now once the band starts playing you realize that overall the drums are to loud or not loud enough. So instead of adjusting each channel to try to fix this you instead assign each channel of the drums to a submix/group channel. So say you assigned channels 1-8 to subgroup/mix 1 Then to adjust the complete drum kit mix level all you have to do is turn subgroup 1 level up and down. So your subgroups are just master level controls for a group of channels usually dedicated by some related grouping of similar instrument or vocal inputs . So you might end up with Subgroup 1 as "Drum Mix" Subgroup 2 as "Guitar Mix" Subgroup 3 as Back-up Vocals Subgroup 4 as lead vocals etc... So depending on the amount of subgroups you have the easier it is to control a Master Output mix since you don't have to chase down a group (or single) of channel faders just to balance the volume to the main output mix. 2. The main output section also usually contains your main auxiliary sends and returns and their controls. This is pretty much just like an effects loop on an amp but you will usually have more of them and more control. Remember a send is an "Output" and a Return is an " Input" Remember when I mentioned "pre/post" fade earlier on the preamp channel strip? This is where that selection comes into play if you have selected the pre-fade selection then the amount of signal you send from that channel to the effect will only be effected by the amount you turn up the Aux send on the channel. If you selected post fade then the more you raise the fader on the channel the wet/dry signal ratio stays the same. Also remember if you have set the channel to prefade that the input signal will still be going to the aux output even when the channel fader is all the way down and the channel is muted. This can be cool if you want a really wet effect on a vocal or guitar. Aux sends can also be used to run a stage monitor mix as well. If you run the master output send of say Aux 1 into a mixer/poweramp/monitors or at least a power amp with monitors attached you can control what is running through the stage monitors just by assigning whatever somebody wants to hear onstage by turning up the aux on the channel they want to hear without effecting your house mix. Finally depending on the board you will usually have a couple of main output faders. These are pretty obvious and possibly some different independent output controls that do various things. Well that was fun... Hope I didn't cause you even more confusion. Again, As I said even though you have all of this capability doesn't mean you have to use it. But it is nice to have... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidl Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Well there ya go. I would still go with a PA head and a Full range Speaker. Easy as Acoustic Amp setup even if you don't use all the bells and whistles you still have something that will provide you a much better sound for your acoustic. Don't be afraid of mixers... Just remember that 90% of the knobs are just duplicates for each channel. If you visualize them in isolated sections they are much less intimidating Here is a brief little run down. A channel is a Pre-amp section just like the front of your amplifier It can be broken into a couple of sections Channel ( preamp section ) Input usually an XLR for Microphone or Balanced 1/4 inch ( same as an xlr cable but in the form of 1/4 inch. It has an extra wire running through it like XLR) a mute button - Pretty Obvious a Solo button - Allows you to just hear that channel without having to mute the rest A fader ( volume control for the channel output to the main ouput) Gain Control ( amount of level you are sending to the front of the input of the channel before any EQ or Fader level) a pre/post fade button ( this is usually tied to the aux send and the mute ) So you can tap into the signal before the fader or after it. A balance control ( In a stereo setup it can be used just like balance on any stereo device) In a mono set-up it can be used to assign the channel to a Subgroup output ( more on that later) "Sub out" selection button ( varies on the amount of subgroup outs the board has) A "Pad" button cuts the input level on the channel if the input instrument has a very hot signal that you can't prevent from clipping by turning the gain all the way down EQ Section This can have more or less knobs depending on the board. Basic setup is a fixed bass Frequency range say 180hz and down that you can control how much you cut or boost on the channel with the bass knob. A sweepable Mid-Range allows you to adjust the the frequency range you want to select and then another knob you use to adjust how much you want to cut or boost on the channel. A treble knob that is usually a cut boost for a fixed high frequency range. Depending on the Board you will have a lot more control ( knobs ) to dial in the EQ with A low frequency cut button. Usually applied on Channels with Vocal mics or instruments that don't produce frequencies below 100hz or so ( prevents unnecessary low end rumble or feedback) Auxiliary sends ( amount varies by board) Can be used to send the channel output to an effect or used to create a separate monitor mix. Depending what you have hooked up to the corresponding main Aux Send/Return on the Boards Master Ouput Section ( more later) Channel Insert allows you to insert an effect ( usually a compressor, limiter, noise gate) between the channels output and the boards master output. Phantom power allows the channel to provide a voltage signal to a Condenser microphone. Once you Examine a channel and figure out what all the channel capabilities/functions are you can pretty much ignore 90% of the rest of the board because almost every channel is going to just be a repeat. So we covered the primary input/preamp section of the mixing board now to the Output Section. Basic Output Section Depending on the board you might have a number of subgroups with knobs or sliders. The subgroups allow you to assign and send certain individual input/preamp channels and combine them onto one controllable fader. So say you have a drum set that has a kick on channel 1 a snare on channel 2 a Highhat on channel 3 Toms on channel 4,5,6, and over heads for the cymbals on channels 7 and 8. You would want to set the individual channel faders to produce an overall drum mix so that everything is at an equal and balanced volume level. Now once the band starts playing you realize that overall the drums are to loud or not loud enough. So instead of adjusting each channel to try to fix this you instead assign each channel of the drums to a submix/group channel. So say you assigned channels 1-8 to subgroup/mix 1 Then to adjust the complete drum kit mix level all you have to do is turn subgroup 1 level up and down. So your subgroups are just master level controls for a group of channels usually dedicated by some related grouping of similar instrument or vocal inputs . So you might end up with Subgroup 1 as "Drum Mix" Subgroup 2 as "Guitar Mix" Subgroup 3 as Back-up Vocals Subgroup 4 as lead vocals etc... So depending on the amount of subgroups you have the easier it is to control a Master Output mix since you don't have to chase down a group (or single) of channel faders just to balance the volume to the main output mix. 2. The main output section also usually contains your main auxiliary sends and returns and their controls. This is pretty much just like an effects loop on an amp but you will usually have more of them and more control. Remember a send is an "Output" and a Return is an " Input" Remember when I mentioned "pre/post" fade earlier on the preamp channel strip? This is where that selection comes into play if you have selected the pre-fade selection then the amount of signal you send from that channel to the effect will only be effected by the amount you turn up the Aux send on the channel. If you selected post fade then the more you raise the fader on the channel the wet/dry signal ratio stays the same. Also remember if you have set the channel to prefade that the input signal will still be going to the aux output even when the channel fader is all the way down and the channel is muted. This can be cool if you want a really wet effect on a vocal or guitar. Aux sends can also be used to run a stage monitor mix as well. If you run the master output send of say Aux 1 into a mixer/poweramp/monitors or at least a power amp with monitors attached you can control what is running through the stage monitors just by assigning whatever somebody wants to hear onstage by turning up the aux on the channel they want to hear without effecting your house mix. Finally depending on the board you will usually have a couple of main output faders. These are pretty obvious and possibly some different independent output controls that do various things. Well that was fun... Hope I didn't cause you even more confusion. Again, As I said even though you have all of this capability doesn't mean you have to use it. But it is nice to have... Andy Thanks a lot Andy. It does look like a lot to know but you've managed to break things down a bit for me. I'm more familiar with video switching through a matrix with or without scan conversion and effects. I'm also quite competent with ethernet switching and routing so some of the same principles apply. Just a matter of getting my hands dirty and making some mistakes to learn from them. I'm impressed over and over again by the diverse wealth of knowledge on this forum and the willingness of folks to share. Thanks again Andy and everyone else who kicks in their thoughts and opinions. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Thanks a lot Andy. It does look like a lot to know but you've managed to break things down a bit for me. I'm more familiar with video switching through a matrix with or without scan conversion and effects. I'm also quite competent with ethernet switching and routing so some of the same principles apply. Just a matter of getting my hands dirty and making some mistakes to learn from them. I'm impressed over and over again by the diverse wealth of knowledge on this forum and the willingness of folks to share. Thanks again Andy and everyone else who kicks in their thoughts and opinions. Dave Yep it is all just a matter of an input goes to an output and vice versa. Follow the path... Sounds like we have something else in common. I provide global video webcast services to a Large Pharmaceuticals company so I deal with the A/V switching, scan converting, signal conversion, switching, routing, encoding, decoding, transcoding, network delivery and edge delivery aspect of it all on a daily basis. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Running direct to PA is harder than it seems...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidl Posted May 30, 2011 Author Share Posted May 30, 2011 Haha, I can always count on you Damian. First chuckle of the day. Run to PA? Sometimes a run to the bathroom seems too far. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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