Theory - All levels, We can All Learn Something.

[rct]

RCT I agree but as I stated earlier in my thread I am taking more of a Theory for Rock guitar approach and less of a Classical and or Notational approach. To me it's whatever works for you.

 

Yeah, I can see that, to some degree. I think we look at it in two fundamentally different ways, and I'll just stay off it for the sake of the audience. There is, to me, no Theory for Rock guitar, no Classical, no Notational. It's just the beautiful mathematics that make music.

 

rct

[zigzag]

On my post #164, page 9 of this thread, there is a youtube of Satriani discussing modes. I would suggest that anyone interested in learning about the sounds that you get from playing different modes refer to that post, and then move on to some of his other mode lessons. I didn't learn much from Satch, but he did motivate me even more to explore delving into modes further. Myself, I will continue to take lessons until I've learned as much as I can about modes and learn a few more scales (harmonic and melodic minors). After that, I'm done. I've had a great teacher. I may learn how to teach and do that in my retirement years.

 

Also, scales don't take that long to learn. But to be able to play them as though they are second nature takes practice. I take about 15 minutes a night out of my practice time just to practice scales. I actually enjoy it. If you learn scales, you know modes since that is all they are. As I implied before, modes are merely scales within scales.

[zigzag]

From Andy:

 

Ionian mode = WWHWWWH No sharps or flats

Dorian Mode = WHWWWHW or 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Phrygian Mode = HWWWHWW or 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

Lydian Mode = WWWHWWH or 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

Mixolydian Mode = WWHWWHW or 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

Aeolian Mode = WHWWHWW or 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 Also Known as A Natural minor or the Relative Minor of the Key

Locrian = HWWHWWW or 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

 

What Zig Zag did was demonstrate what you are doing to the corresponding major scales of each of the root notes contained in the key. If you look at it this way you are associating the notes within a single scale applying the formula to each major scale of every root note.

 

 

 

Your method is definitely easier. I learned it my way, but I think of it your way.

 

BTW, do any of you get the idea that there are only about three or four people reading this thread?

[damian]

I'm following it........ [thumbup] ....

[stein]

ANDY, ZIG, SHRED, RCT....GOOD STUFF.

[damian]

STEIN, GOOD STUFF............

[stein]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/b]

This to me is gold. To me, this shows the PATTERNS. Just like the pentatonic scale, there are 5 BOX patterns in the major scale.

 

AND...within this pattern, there is also the the pentatonic scale. There will be only ONE pentatonic scale that fits into it. Also, within this pattern of the 5 box shapes, EVERY chord that is in the key will be contained in this pattern.

 

When you learn the fingerings and memorize the the major scale, you have also learned the minor scale. The minor pentatonic scale is right over the minor scale. And, like all things guitar, you just move the whole pattern up and down the neck to play in key.

 

Can anyone SEE the minor pentatonic inside the c major scale? Can you SEE the chords also?

[stein]

Yeah, I can see that, to some degree. I think we look at it in two fundamentally different ways, and I'll just stay off it for the sake of the audience. There is, to me, no Theory for Rock guitar, no Classical, no Notational. It's just the beautiful mathematics that make music.

 

rct

I see your point, and I think that practice, experience, and DOING is the most valueable asset to learn. If you know what something will sound like when you play it, it really doesn't matter that you know what it is or why, it works because you have done it before and know what it will do.

 

BUT..another way to look at it is that by learning a little (or a lot) of thoery can ACCELERATE your learning, and make it easier to learn or point you in a direction of what to learn.

 

It could also be applied backwards: learning the theory of what you know and understanding what you already know how to play could open you up to being able to apply and use things you already can, but are not aware of. It is like not having to practice by scoring freebies.

[stein]

Just to simplify and clarify:

 

C MAJ scale is this: C D E F G A B. Using these notes, we get the scales of

 

C MAJ MAJOR

D Dorian min D dorian minor scale

E Phrygian min E Phrygian minor scale

F Lydian MAJ F Lydian scale

G Mixolodian MAJ G MAJ mixolodian SCALE

A Minor min A minor

B Locrian half DIM

 

Sometimes, the scale used is actually the scales listed. Like a song done in E phrygian minor for a spanish type sound and feel.

 

Now, if you want to go modal, You might substitute, or do nothing. If you are playing in A minor, and the chord changed to an E minor you were playing over, playing the A minor scale would also be playing the E phrygian minor over and E chord. OR..if you wanted, you could take a chance and try a little A Phrygian over an A minor.

 

The purpose of this is to clarify that regardless of mode and the reason behind it, we should be aware of what scale we are using and what it is called. Changing modes and changing scales should be considered two different concepts. Changing from a C MAJ to a C Dorian is a different scale, and changing from C MAJ to a D Dorian is a different mode.

[Andy R]

Here is a a great utility

 

http://www.guitarlickers.com/chordscale.html

 

Scroll down to see the pentatonic forms. Notice they are just moving the same shapes ( forms ) relative to the chosen key. The shapes don't change and if you look you can see the CAGED forms.

 

Andy

[stein]

Here is a a great utility

 

http://www.guitarlickers.com/chordscale.html

 

Scroll down to see the pentatonic forms. Notice they are just moving the same shapes ( forms ) relative to the chosen key. The shapes don't change and if you look you can see the CAGED forms.

 

Andy

THAT is an awesome tool.

 

And, thats the kind of theory that works for me. Seeing the relationships between the chords and the scales, seeing how they have the same relationship to each other.

[Andy R]

OK my work here is finished. I have found a site that sums it all up for Guitar Players.

 

The Title says it all!!!

 

"Music Theory for The Short Attention Span" !!! Now this Guy thinks like I do!!

 

 

http://www.folkblues...heory/index.htm

[Andy R]

Just to simplify and clarify:

 

C MAJ scale is this: C D E F G A B. Using these notes, we get the scales of

 

C MAJ MAJOR

D Dorian min D dorian minor scale

E Phrygian min E Phrygian minor scale

F Lydian MAJ F Lydian scale

G Mixolodian MAJ G MAJ mixolodian SCALE

A Minor min A minor

B Locrian half DIM

 

Sometimes, the scale used is actually the scales listed. Like a song done in E phrygian minor for a spanish type sound and feel.

 

Now, if you want to go modal, You might substitute, or do nothing. If you are playing in A minor, and the chord changed to an E minor you were playing over, playing the A minor scale would also be playing the E phrygian minor over and E chord. OR..if you wanted, you could take a chance and try a little A Phrygian over an A minor.

 

The purpose of this is to clarify that regardless of mode and the reason behind it, we should be aware of what scale we are using and what it is called. Changing modes and changing scales should be considered two different concepts. Changing from a C MAJ to a C Dorian is a different scale, and changing from C MAJ to a D Dorian is a different mode.

 

Good Summary Stein.

 

One thing that should also be clarified is that Sometimes people will refer to a mode as playing "C Major Dorian Mode" which would be D Dorian and sometimes people will say "C Dorian mode" Which would be Dorian mode Starting with C . This can be quite confusing! So just a reminder for people to determine how a mode is being referenced.

 

 

Andy

[stein]

OK my work here is finished. I have found a site that sums it all up for Guitar Players.

 

The Title says it all!!!

 

"Music Theory for The Short Attention Span" !!! Now this Guy thinks like I do!!

 

 

http://www.folkblues...heory/index.htm

Umm..dude...I don't think so.

 

Do we not play something because it has been played before? Do we not build something because it has been built before? No, we don't.

 

Do we not discuss something because it has been discussed before? No, we don't.

 

Do we not learn something because it has been learned before? No, we don't.

 

You are FAR from done, my friend. You are not done with the LP rebuild, I see you have Ric project not DONE, you have a kitchen to get DONE..a band, a woman.

 

Your work is not done until you take your last breath. THEN you can be done.

[stein]

Of course, we would be remiss if we did not include the DAMIAN modes of music.

 

There is LEARNING mode, and SOMETIMES you might be in practicing MODE. Then, there are the different modes of playing: the JAMMING mode, the WRITING mode, and the PERFORMING mode.

 

From this point, for clarification, we will refer to this as the DAMIAN scale.

 

For example, if Damian is showing you something in C, you are in the learning mode of C DAMIAN. If you jamming with damian in C, you are playing in C DAMIAN JAM.

[Andy R]

Yeah, I can see that, to some degree. I think we look at it in two fundamentally different ways, and I'll just stay off it for the sake of the audience. There is, to me, no Theory for Rock guitar, no Classical, no Notational. It's just the beautiful mathematics that make music.

rct

 

RCT I don't think you should "Stay off it" Your comments make me think. I might make a rebuttal but it doesn't make me stop mulling over your feedback and see things a different way. There are others on here that might like a different perspective as well. You have made the comparison of math and music. So here is an analogy for you. .

 

"The tonal Center is C" to me this is the same as "the Answer is 4"

Let's see...

2+2=4

1+1+1+1=4

1+3=4

2X2=4

4X1=4

6-2=4

4=6-2

X-Y+1=4

 

Obviously this could go on forever.... The question is... What is the question?.... Do we just need to arrive at 4 or do we need to know how we arrived at 4 or are we solving an unknown to get to 4 etc....

 

So you ask why I go back to the root. It is the center of my math. Maybe it is the long way.... I dunno it works for me.

 

Someone says play D Dorian you can think:

Dorian = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 or just condensed b3, b7

1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 of What?

D Major.... Ok now I have to figure out D major

DEF#GABC#D now I need to lower the 3rd and the 6th by a half step So D Dorian = DEFGABC

 

or I could think D Dorian the Second mode of C Major ( no flats or sharps)

= DEFGABCD

 

Same with G Dorian I think = Second mode of F Major ( 1 flat) ( F G A Bb C D E F )

So G Dorian is G A Bb C D E F

 

As a guitar player I know how to shift patterns to play this up and down the neck

 

So this is an honest and sincere question... Not an argument or debate as I am willing to think differently... but what is the difference as long as I know how to derive and apply the answer? I also know a couple different ways to get to the same answer? In my mind this helps me in the case I need to solve for an unknown or something that isn't defined... Am I missing something Important?

 

The Rock Guitar Theory approach to me is to get guitar players at least interested in theory to some degree. I believe learning theory on guitar is a bit more difficult than say piano since it is somewhat non-linear.

 

So instead of learning single patterns or shapes we have to learn multiple patterns and shapes. I think this puts a lot of guitar players off of it.

 

On piano it is easier to visualize where BC and EF are. You can Quickly see where the flats and sharps are and you only have to move a finger one direction or another instead of up, down, side to side, or even changing fingering all together to produce the chord or scale or lick etc..

 

 

Keep on Chiming in man!

 

Andy

[Andy R]

 

BTW, do any of you get the idea that there are only about three or four people reading this thread?

 

 

2,458 Views... I don't think so. It appears we have many lurkers...

[zigzag]

C'mon!... Who jams in C Damian?!...

[damian]

C'mon!... Who jams in C Damian?!...

 

These guys do !!!!! .........

[Andy R]

C'mon!... Who jams in C Damian?!...

 

 

I prefer D Damian Minor... It is the Punnest of all keys.....

[rct]

I see your point, and I think that practice, experience, and DOING is the most valueable asset to learn. If you know what something will sound like when you play it, it really doesn't matter that you know what it is or why, it works because you have done it before and know what it will do.

 

BUT..another way to look at it is that by learning a little (or a lot) of thoery can ACCELERATE your learning, and make it easier to learn or point you in a direction of what to learn.

 

Yes, by teaching what NOT to do.

 

Very very much of guitar playing is NOT doing something. Don't fill all available space with solo, don't let the guitar make noise, don't land hard on a 1 on the wrong note, don't get TOO far off the beat unless you don't mind sounding like a near car wreck getting back on it(my favorite thing to NOT not do).

 

It could also be applied backwards: learning the theory of what you know and understanding what you already know how to play could open you up to being able to apply and use things you already can, but are not aware of.

 

Yes. "You already knew that, you just didn't know you knew that." A very wise Master once told an eager Grasshopper that, long ago, far away, in usenet, and it has stuck ever since.

 

It is like not having to practice by scoring freebies.

 

Here is where we will amicably disagree.

 

Music theory is awesome, it is a wonderful thing to know and understand. It is especially helpful as you(imperial You) hopefully take up other instruments.

 

Guitar playing, Rock Guitar Playing especially, is about 99.7579943% physical. There are only six strings, and there are only 20 odd frets for each string. Differences between the two major companies, scale lengths and neck profiles aside, one should be completely physically familiar with a guitar by about...10 years maybe? That's if you are in a band or bands, and if you are playing a variety of stuff, and especially if you are at least getting to the mic for some harmonies once in a while.

 

I learned all that stuff in Jazz Band in HIGH school, where I played the piano because there were too many guitar players in my school. It all stayed with me, it all helps especially with writing songs, with talking to others and acing an audition here and there, or getting in there and recording something based on the description alone.

 

But getting out there and playing I'm Your Captain/Closer To Home just one.more.time. is MOST of what we do. And ALL of that stuff, all of those things called Rock Guitar Playing that occur outside the home, those things are all purely physical, and I believe I speak for most working guitar players when I say that given the choice between impressing the babes with my hawt shcreendoorian arpeggios or impressing the babes with my Warrior Pose Stance and just ripping what my body says works for this song, I will always, ALWAYS, take the latter, I trust my body to know what to NOT do with this particular guitar, assuming I've had it on for a minute. If I don't do anything wrong, it is all right, therefore, it is all good, because the babes only know that what they hear doesn't sound like a$$, and that you look good doing it. In thirty five years of being in bands, thirty of those years very happily married, I can honestly say this is truth. I'm not even hittin this stuff and I know how it works.

 

If the song took 8 key changes and used every mode god ever thought of well, I'm pretty sure I practiced it until it was physically no longer a thought. I am, like a lot of guitar players, up early for my job, and usually spend the early parts of the day walking around drinking a cup of coffee with a guitar on, wanking away. It's quiet, don't bother nobody, nobody bothers me, all that. I highly recommend to all students that they do just that. Jeff Beck gets two hours every morning, and this is the funny part, WHETHER HE NEEDS IT OR NOT! <rimshot> Thanks folks enjoy the buffet, Jeff will be here all week. Needs it or not. Funny guy he is.

 

Point is, no freebies, no not practicing. I always encourage learning music theory as it applies to music, not as it applies to Rock Guitar, because realistically, there is no such thing, but that learning theory is in no way at all a shortcut to anything, and it won't make anyone not have to physically work to "master" their guitar. The one true thing that really applies to Rock Guitar and really makes a difference in progress is physical familiarity with your instrument that allows you to do ANYthing your brain conceives. You can KNOW all the modes in the world, if you can't effortlessly move through them when you need to, in less than optimal circumstances, they are no good at all to you.

 

Just my experience, there are many others that may have vastly different experience. I don't want to or mean to appear to be arguing, just trying to temper things with what they need to be tempered with. I have had way too many students give up guitar playing simply because they couldn't play Crazy Train five minutes into their first lesson. It isn't easy, and nothing will make it easy.

 

Did this make sense? It has gone from Theory to Bar Band Mastery in one post, I didn't mean for that to happen!

 

rct

[rct]

RCT I don't think you should "Stay off it" Your comments make me think. I might make a rebuttal but it doesn't make me stop mulling over your feedback and see things a different way. There are others on here that might like a different perspective as well. You have made the comparison of math and music. So here is an analogy for you.

 

"The tonal Center is C" to me this is the same as "the Answer is 4"

Let's see...

2+2=4

1+1+1+1=4

1+3=4

2X2=4

4X1=4

6-2=4

4=6-2

X-Y+1=4

 

Obviously this could go on forever.... The question is... What is the question?.... Do we just need to arrive at 4 or do we need to know how we arrived at 4 or are we solving an unknown to get to 4 etc....

 

So you ask why I go back to the root. It is the center of my math. Maybe it is the long way.... I dunno it works for me.

 

Someone says play D Dorian you can think:

Dorian = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 or just condensed b3, b7

1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 of What?

D Major.... Ok now I have to figure out D major

DEF#GABC#D now I need to lower the 3rd and the 6th by a half step So D Dorian = DEFGABC

 

or I could think D Dorian the Second mode of C Major ( no flats or sharps)

= DEFGABCD

 

Same with G Dorian I think = Second mode of F Major ( 1 flat) ( F G A Bb C D E F )

So G Dorian is G A Bb C D E F

 

As a guitar player I know how to shift patterns to play this up and down the neck

 

So this is an honest and sincere question... Not an argument or debate as I am willing to think differently... but what is the difference as long as I know how to derive and apply the answer? I also know a couple different ways to get to the same answer? In my mind this helps me in the case I need to solve for an unknown or something that isn't defined... Am I missing something Important?

 

 

Keep on Chiming in man!

 

Andy

 

Well, I think you are right in what is the difference as long as I arrive at the right answer, I do agree with that. I only think that there is one theory, and it is taught, and then all of us, me too, make it work the way we make it work, which might not be as per the textbook.

 

Rock on brutha!

 

rct

[zigzag]

Yo rct!

 

I don't know if your post #246 was the best post on this thread, but it was the most fun to read.

 

BTW, do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall? ;)

[Andy R]

Yo rct!

 

I don't know if your post #246 was the best post on this thread, but it was the most fun to read.

 

BTW, do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall? ;)

 

I will +1 both of the RCT posts.

[rct]

Well that is nice of you guys, thank you very much!

 

I can't explain it as easily and handily as Andy R is, because I don't use it as much as he does, not like that, not on the neck. So I get caught up in the formal side of it all, and I pretty much keep it there, piano and such.

 

I can prolly explain to a kid how to make it LOOK like you know what the eff you are doing far easier, because I've pretty much been doing that my entire guitar career!

 

rct