fauxtronic Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Hi, I recently bought an Epiphone Dot from Thomann which is buzzing/rattling on the low E string at the fifth fret, no matter what adjustments I make. The neck relief is 0.010", and even if I set the bridge/action really high, the buzzing is still there. It's particularly bad when I play double stops which incorporate the low E/fifth fret, but buzz doesn't affect any other strings when played alone. I can't hear it through the amp, but I can hear it above the amp unless I have it really loud, and I can feel the odd vibration in my finger. Supplied with the guitar was information about adjusting the truss rod which suggests that - if the buzzing still remains after adjustment - it's probably due to a poorly seated fret which I should "gently tap with a hammer". Er... I'm reluctant to do that with a brand new guitar... particularly if it turns out I'm hitting the wrong fret. I'm just wondering what people here think about this problem and if anybody has experienced similar. When I measured the neck relief I put a capo at the first fret, held down the last fret and measured the distance between 7th fret and the low E string with a feeler gauge. 0.008" doesn't touch the string, but 0.010" just about does. I think that's the correct way to determine relief? It also occurred to me (and this is probably wishful thinking) that the low E string is badly wound and resonating/rattling at a certain frequency as a result... and maybe changing the strings will resolve the problem. A crazy thought? Eh, it was worth mentioning. :P I'm going to change the strings to Elixirs anyway (my preferred kind), but have yet to order them. Thanks for reading. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amx05462 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 well then while you have the strings off put a straight edge in the area you suspect there is a high fret. that should tell you something. . stew mac has a fret rocker which is a short streight edge . but you could use a short steel ruler. wheni do this i usually remove any relief beforehand as the relief may cover up this problem. btw i check my fret board with one of those slotted straight edges. . if you have access to the tools you mentioned they must have one of those. as to tapping down a fret. well thats common . use either a soft brass hammer or a hard rubber one and it wont hurt the fret its good to learm all this stuff. just a suggestion ...if you dont like the epiphone pickups you might want to try some filtertrons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fauxtronic Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 Thanks. I'm in the UK, so I'll see if I can get a fret rocker locally before considering stewmac.com. I've got a horrible feeling that the fifth fret is actually too low. Lower than all the others. But it's a bit difficult to verify that theory until I have the right tools. I wish Epiphone had an authorized service centre within 40 miles. I contacted Epiphone support and discovered my only option was to travel that far if I want them to resolve the problem. I don't have a car since I took up cycling a couple of years ago, and I work seven days a week at the moment, so it's kind of difficult to travel that far during office hours. If they had somewhere closer I could at least have taken the guitar in on my lunch hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArgonautIOI Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Hi, I recently bought an Epiphone Dot from Thomann which is buzzing/rattling on the low E string at the fifth fret, no matter what adjustments I make. The neck relief is 0.010", and even if I set the bridge/action really high, the buzzing is still there. It's particularly bad when I play double stops which incorporate the low E/fifth fret, but buzz doesn't affect any other strings when played alone. I can't hear it through the amp, but I can hear it above the amp unless I have it really loud, and I can feel the odd vibration in my finger. Supplied with the guitar was information about adjusting the truss rod which suggests that - if the buzzing still remains after adjustment - it's probably due to a poorly seated fret which I should "gently tap with a hammer". Er... I'm reluctant to do that with a brand new guitar... particularly if it turns out I'm hitting the wrong fret. I'm just wondering what people here think about this problem and if anybody has experienced similar. When I measured the neck relief I put a capo at the first fret, held down the last fret and measured the distance between 7th fret and the low E string with a feeler gauge. 0.008" doesn't touch the string, but 0.010" just about does. I think that's the correct way to determine relief? It also occurred to me (and this is probably wishful thinking) that the low E string is badly wound and resonating/rattling at a certain frequency as a result... and maybe changing the strings will resolve the problem. A crazy thought? Eh, it was worth mentioning. :P I'm going to change the strings to Elixirs anyway (my preferred kind), but have yet to order them. Thanks for reading. :) When I first got my Dot, it buzzed at the 5th fret. One of the main issues was that it was set up for a different gauge of string than I was using and the nut was just not done right. I had the guitar set-up by my Luthier, he changed out the nut and set it up for a specific set of strings that I was using. Buzz was gone when I got it back and it plays like a dream' Argo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fauxtronic Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 When I first got my Dot, it buzzed at the 5th fret. One of the main issues was that it was set up for a different gauge of string than I was using and the nut was just not done right. I had the guitar set-up by my Luthier, he changed out the nut and set it up for a specific set of strings that I was using. Buzz was gone when I got it back and it plays like a dream' Argo Thanks for the reply! :) Wouldn't it buzz below the fifth fret as well if it was a nut problem? Epiphone told me this morning that all Dots are fitted with 10 gauge strings at the factory (as I suspected). I've been putting 11 gauge Elixirs on my Yamaha acoustic for the past two years, so I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to go up a gauge on the Dot and see if that resolves the problem. I'm confident I can setup the neck relief, action and intonation myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amx05462 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Thanks. I'm in the UK, so I'll see if I can get a fret rocker locally before considering stewmac.com. I've got a horrible feeling that the fifth fret is actually too low. Lower than all the others. But it's a bit difficult to verify that theory until I have the right tools. I wish Epiphone had an authorized service centre within 40 miles. I contacted Epiphone support and discovered my only option was to travel that far if I want them to resolve the problem. I don't have a car since I took up cycling a couple of years ago, and I work seven days a week at the moment, so it's kind of difficult to travel that far during office hours. If they had somewhere closer I could at least have taken the guitar in on my lunch hour. now that i can tell you IS a common problem i have had with epiphones. easy to tell if you even have a plastic ruler. or any straight edge thats not too long. you probably wont want to do this but what i did every time was to take a tiny bit off the top of the next fret. worked every time but its a matter of take a tiny bit thentry it. iwould mark the fret with marker then just go at it till the marker was gone. the only other choices would be to topoff all the frets equally. or replace the fret and file it into proper height. again juat about every epiphone ive ever owned accept my dot had this problem somewhere on the neck. i have to say i like there guitars and the minor problems ive had and have fixed myself were well worth the price vs buying a gibson equivalant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amx05462 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 i just remembered .. on one i put a pencil lead tip under the string to raise it a tiny bit.. this was on one in that area i believe the third fret. cured the problem. so then i used dan erlewines method of filling that nut slot slightly with shavings off the nut and super glue . and that worked very well too. that is if the nut slot is the actual problem going to the 11s should make the string sit slightly higher if the slot is cut for 10s but i think that will be temporary till the string wears it down some say from bending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fauxtronic Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 Thanks again for the replies amx05462. :) I really wouldn't be comfortable doing all of that fret work myself. If the problem doesn't go away when I get new strings, I've got a feeling I'll be doing what ArgonautIOI did and paying a Luthier to sort it out. It's disappointing because any saving I made on the guitar by buying it from Thomann will be lost and I would have been better of buying it from a local store. They would at least resolve any problems like this for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 If your relief and action are set properly (it does sound like you are doing it right) and the string only buzzes at one fret, then it is almost certain that that fret is low. I would send the guitar back unless you want to do or pay for a fret dress. A string can be bad and cause buzzing but it is unlikely to occur at only one fret. The nut cannot cause a fretted note to buzz, only an open string. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fauxtronic Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 Gosh, this is so depressing. I'm not sending it back. It took five weeks just to get here. It seems I'm just going to have to pay to complete the manufacturing process. I can't really afford it, but what the hell. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amx05462 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 well in any case i wish you the best of luck sorting it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fauxtronic Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 Thanks. I do appreciate all the comments. Incidentally (sorry to land more questions on you), I know it's possible to damage the guitar by over-tightening the truss rod, but is it possible to damage it by loosening it too much? I found some factory setup information posted by a Gibson/Memphis inspector, and it seems I should have been holding the strings down at frets 1 and 15, not 1 and 22. When I hold down the string at fret 22, the 0.010" feeler just touches the string at fret 7 while 0.008" completely clears it. When I hold down fret 15, the 0.008" feeler now touches the string, while 0.010" makes very full contact. So it would appear I need to increase the neck relief even more. My concern is that I've already loosened the truss rod by about 1/4 a turn in total and that seems like an awful lot. I don't want to loosen it any further if there's a risk of damaging the guitar. * The Gibson guy recommends a gap of 5/64" at fret 7. 5/64" is about 0.008" in decimal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgruff Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 My concern is that I've already loosened the truss rod by about 1/4 a turn in total and that seems like an awful lot. I don't want to loosen it any further if there's a risk of damaging the guitar. You're fine - keep going. Just take it a little at a time, give the neck time to settle between adjustments, and measure your progress with a feeler guage. When I got my dot the neck was perfectly flat. When I started adjusting the truss rod to add some relief, I seemed to hit a loose spot with very little friction. After a few turns it tightened up again and then the neck started to relax into a forward curve. Here's the frets.com big buzz list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 * The Gibson guy recommends a gap of 5/64" at fret 7. 5/64" is about 0.008" in decimal. Do you mean 0.08" rather than 0.008"? 5/64" is a typical value for setting the action of the low E string, measured at the 12th fret (not pressing any frets). I often go up to about 6/64". 0.008" is more of a value for setting relief, but not 5/64, that would be way too much! 0.010" is the typical value for setting the relief, measured at the 7th fret while pressing the first and last fret. A few thousands of an inch either way is not critical and will not cause the guitar to buzz severely at only one fret. You can go over 0.010" if it gets rid of the buzz and you can live with the overall action/feel. You can't really loosen the truss rod too much unless you really start cranking on it. Mgruff's advice to take a little at a time is good. I haven't tried a credit card for a fret rocker, but if the card is perfectly straight it should work. You will need to get the neck as flat as possible to find the offending fret(s). Set the card across only 3 frets at a time until it rocks, then you know either the middle fret is high or one of the outer frets is low. Make sure the rocker is perfectly parallel with the string path so the fretboard radius doesn't cause a false reading. Be cautious using "straight edges" as most are really not that straight (hold two of them together to check). We are talking very very small differences in fret height so the straight edge has to be perfect. I have a fret rocker from StewMac that is supposed to be machined perfectly straight. It does suck having to send a guitar back. I have had to do it a few times, at least once for a really low fret. I would rather have a high fret or two because it's much easier to fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fauxtronic Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 Do you mean 0.08" rather than 0.008"? 5/64" is a typical value for setting the action of the low E string, measured at the 12th fret (not pressing any frets). I often go up to about 6/64". 0.008" is more of a value for setting relief, but not 5/64, that would be way too much! Sorry. I'm tired and stressed and realised afterwards he was talking about the action. I mean 0.008". 0.010" is the typical value for setting the relief, measured at the 7th fret while pressing the first and last fret. A few thousands of an inch either way is not critical and will not cause the guitar to buzz severely at only one fret. You can go over 0.010" if it gets rid of the buzz and you can live with the overall action/feel. You can't really loosen the truss rod too much unless you really start cranking on it. Mgruff's advice to take a little at a time is good. I haven't tried a credit card for a fret rocker, but if the card is perfectly straight it should work. You will need to get the neck as flat as possible to find the offending fret(s). Set the card across only 3 frets at a time until it rocks, then you know either the middle fret is high or one of the outer frets is low. Make sure the rocker is perfectly parallel with the string path so the fretboard radius doesn't cause a false reading. Be cautious using "straight edges" as most are really not that straight (hold two of them together to check). We are talking very very small differences in fret height so the straight edge has to be perfect. I have a fret rocker from StewMac that is supposed to be machined perfectly straight. It does suck having to send a guitar back. I have had to do it a few times, at least once for a really low fret. I would rather have a high fret or two because it's much easier to fix. Thanks for this. I really appreciate it. After the last 1/8 turn (loosening) I felt like I hit some tension so I won't be loosening it further. I'll be checking the relief later after it's settled, but if the fret buzz doesn't vanish after this, I'll follow your advice re: the credit card method and decide what to do from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fauxtronic Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 The 6th fret appears to be too high. Gibson Europe have agreed to collect it from my door, fix the problem and return it to me. I'm not sure this is usual service though. Apparently they making an exception for me because there's no authorized workshop nearby and my nearest Epiphone dealer was a bit rude when I asked if they would look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aster1 Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I just purchased & received my Stew-Mac fret rocker. Been fighting similar problems with some of my acoustics. Found some variation on many frets that would explain some of the buzzing up/down the neck. Great tool & worth the $25 for sure. Now I'm going to order their fret leveler & see about fixing things. Will start with a cheaper git vs my J-45 to practice on. Aster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I just checked my credit cards vs. my Stewmac fret rocker. The credit cards are a little off, though not significantly. I can see light between them and the fret rocker when I hold them together. I would be cautious about doing any filing or tapping of frets based on the credit card method. One other thought. Are you sure it is the string buzzing and not a sympathetic vibration/buzzing set off by the frequency of the note being played? The bridge saddle or retaining wire will often buzz in this way. I ask because you said that it buzzes even with high action, which is unusual. {Edit: I was typing when you posted about the 6 fret. I hope they sort it out for you}. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I just purchased & received my Stew-Mac fret rocker. Been fighting similar problems with some of my acoustics. Found some variation on many frets that would explain some of the buzzing up/down the neck. Great tool & worth the $25 for sure. Now I'm going to order their fret leveler & see about fixing things. Will start with a cheaper git vs my J-45 to practice on. Aster Yep, it is a great tool. You will also need a crowning file to reshape the frets after leveling. I bought the cheaper one and after doing a couple of guitars it doesn't work so well anymore. Also, it doesn't work well for the upper frets on set neck guitars. I want to get the offset diamond file, but it is $100. Yikes! I made my own leveler with a 8" long piece of aluminum channel. I stick sandpaper on it with double sided tape. I try not to use the leveler too much because it takes down all the frets. I prefer to focus on the bad spots on the bad frets using a small file or fret sander, to preserve as much fret "meat" as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fauxtronic Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 One other thought. Are you sure it is the string buzzing and not a sympathetic vibration/buzzing set off by the frequency of the note being played? The bridge saddle or retaining wire will often buzz in this way. I ask because you said that it buzzes even with high action, which is unusual. {Edit: I was typing when you posted about the 6 fret. I hope they sort it out for you}. It won't be going back til next week, so I'm all ears if anyone has any more ideas. I really do suspect the 6th fret is too high by a miniscule amount... the credit card method would seem to confirm it but I'm not expert enough to trust my diagnosis. If I had a fret rocker I'd be more confident. I've never heard of sympathetic vibration, but it sounds remarkably close to that theory I floated in my first post... "It also occurred to me (and this is probably wishful thinking) that the low E string is badly wound and resonating/rattling at a certain frequency as a result..." I'll go and do some reading up on it right now. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Do you have another wound E you can throw on there? If the 6th fret is high, I would expect some (possibly lesser) buzzing at the 4th fret. Usually if only one fret is buzzing it is because that fret is too low. If you are really sure the 6th is high, then you could do some light tapping with a small hammer at that spot to see if it helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fauxtronic Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 Do you have another wound E you can throw on there? If the 6th fret is high, I would expect some (possibly lesser) buzzing at the 4th fret. What I've noticed since my first post here is that there is a slight buzz when lifting my finger off the fourth fret, so more evidence that the 6th fret is too high? It's just nowhere near as obvious. With the fifth fret, it happens *as* the note is played. With the fourth, only when lifting the finger off and barely noticeable but definitely there. I'm now wishing I hadn't restrung my Colorama with my last set of strings a few days before the Dot arrived. If I go into Liverpool tomorrow, I'll pick some up and see if a new low E makes a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 If I go into Liverpool tomorrow..... Wow, as a Beatles fan, that just sounds so cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex2k20 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Get a multimeter Positive attached to the bridge and Negative to the fret keep Hitting an open E until you find where the problem is located. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 On 2/21/2013 at 9:48 AM, fauxtronic said: Thanks. I'm in the UK, so I'll see if I can get a fret rocker locally before considering stewmac.com. My last "new" epi was a 2015 Sheraton. I had about 7 high frets I had to address. not an uncommon situation google Buzz Off, that's a kit that will provide tools to do the job if you just have one or two high frets. For fret rockers just look on amazon, you'll pay out the nose for one of these from stew mac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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