Gibson Guitar Board: " REPAIR " Broken neck of Gibson SG how torepair ???? HELP - Gibson Guitar Board

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" REPAIR " Broken neck of Gibson SG how torepair ???? HELP

#21 User is offline   80LPC 

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 09:53 AM

I've been looking into this again, and found drawbacks with using carpenter's glue / Titebond. These glues soften at lower temperatures than hide glue. A guitar left in the case in a car in the sun can get hot enough for the glue to melt. The tension of the strings then does the rest, pulling the repair apart. Hide glue can resist these temperatures.

I found a video on Youtube of a Dean headstock being repaired with superglue. A search revealed that this is not recommended - reasonable I thought...but then a respected pro repairs a mandolin headstock with superglue (thin to penetrate the crack, and thick for the rest). This had previously been repaired with Titebond, and had failed when the mandolin got hot. I found another repair using a combination of superglue, epoxy (as a gap filler) and hide glue.

These findings overturned my view of Titebond and yellow carpenter's glue being suitable for high stress areas on guitars.

Look after those necks !

#22 User is offline   Dynadude 

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 03:40 PM

Quote

I've been looking into this again, and found drawbacks with using carpenter's glue / Titebond. These glues soften at lower temperatures than hide glue. A guitar left in the case in a car in the sun can get hot enough for the glue to melt. The tension of the strings then does the rest, pulling the repair apart. Hide glue can resist these temperatures.

I found a video on Youtube of a Dean headstock being repaired with superglue. A search revealed that this is not recommended - reasonable I thought...but then a respected pro repairs a mandolin headstock with superglue (thin to penetrate the crack, and thick for the rest). This had previously been repaired with Titebond, and had failed when the mandolin got hot. I found another repair using a combination of superglue, epoxy (as a gap filler) and hide glue.

These findings overturned my view of Titebond and yellow carpenter's glue being suitable for high stress areas on guitars.

Look after those necks !


Not to be argumentative, but it's called wood glue for good reason. If used correctly, you won't find anything that will work better with wood.

I've used it to bind everything from formed stairway rails to musical instruments and never had a failure that could be attributed to the glue itself.

You might want to take a tour of most any good guitar manufacturer. You'll see that the most widely used adhesive for joining wood is wood glue. They would include Gibson, Martin, Fender, Ibanez, and the list goes on and on.

Sure, they use specialty glues for certain jobs, like inlays and such, but for joining most any two pieces of wood, just guess what they use, and that includes joining the body slabs, neck pieces, and fret boards. You don't get much higher stress than the fret board to the neck.
1962 LP/SG Special - 1998 LP Studio DC W/EMG 81/85 pups - '98 Squier Fat Strat - '04 Hand Built Teleblaster W/Vintage Vibe pups - Hand Built Lap Steel W/Fender pups - Kona K2SB A/E Don't laugh, it sounds great!
'09 Fender Deluxe VM - Fender Sattelite - Marshall G80R CD - Fender Champion 600 - Orange Crush 10

#23 User is offline   max2343 

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 04:11 PM

Most wood Glue used on Guitars come apart with steam heat. A cappuccino maker works great (ya know the thing on the side used to steam milk) for pulling apart set necks. Any shit left in the car is just plain stupid. You can't even leave your dog in your car if its 80 degrees out and in most states it's legal to punch a persons car windows out if a dog is found inside left alone.

Did they pass a law yet that says its o.k. to punch out a guitar owner and take his guitar if he leaves it in a car with the windows closed. They should.

Normal yellow Carpenters glue is most commonly used for good reason.

It's strong and it comes apart when needed at about 220 degrees.

If you want to never ever take something apart and what a stronger Bond, use Epoxies

#24 User is offline   80LPC 

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 10:21 AM

Quote

Not to be argumentative, but it's called wood glue for good reason. If used correctly, you won't find anything that will work better with wood.


PVA is also called wood glue, but that doesn't mean it's the best for the job. I don't advocate leaving a guitar in a hot car, but it's some reassurance that that if a guitar should encounter high temperatures, hide glue will continue to hold.

Quote

You might want to take a tour of most any good guitar manufacturer. You'll see that the most widely used adhesive for joining wood is wood glue. They would include Gibson, Martin, Fender, Ibanez, and the list goes on and on.


I know they use aliphatic resin for joining wood.

Quote

You don't get much higher stress than the fret board to the neck.


I'm afraid you do. It results in broken headstocks....

Body slabs - due to the large pieces of wood and large glue surface area, these are low stress joints. Neck laminations - string tension spread evenly over the long pieces, and plenty of surface area = low stress. Fretboard - a massive glueing surface area of around 76 square inches ! And of course, the neck and fretboard reinforce each other. So where is the 'really' high stress area ? The transition between neck and headstock with the short grain.

If we were to take the weakest line in the wood grain, and measure the surface area in the common break region, we find that the surface area is only around 4 square inches. Quite a difference, 76 vs 4 square inches. This is why headstocks break.

At Gibson, they are not repairing broken headstocks on the shop floor. They are joining nice pieces of wood with large glueing areas with strong aliphatic resin. The problems start once the guitars leave the factory...

Both Hide and aliphatic resin are very strong, with low creep properties. I'm just pointing out that one is more stable than the other.

#25 User is offline   max2343 

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 02:54 AM

What kinda Stupid pissing match have got my babies in the middle of?

#26 User is offline   80LPC 

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 07:10 AM

Watch out, they might get wet...

#27 User is offline   hellion102792 

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 10:13 AM

Enjoy it once it's done, I saw the same guitar model in Guitar Center a few months back. '70s era, walnut with the embossed pups and Bigsby. It played great, but only the neck pup worked so I didn't get to hear what it fully sounded like.
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#28 User is offline   Dynadude 

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 02:56 PM

I've seen what age does to hide glues. It hardens and shatters, then basically turns to dust.

Like I said, I'd use wood glue, and so would any good pro luthier. You use whatever you want, but be careful recommending anything you don't have personal experience using.

BTW, it takes steam heat to melt wood glue. I've never seen a case where dry heat would affect it.
1962 LP/SG Special - 1998 LP Studio DC W/EMG 81/85 pups - '98 Squier Fat Strat - '04 Hand Built Teleblaster W/Vintage Vibe pups - Hand Built Lap Steel W/Fender pups - Kona K2SB A/E Don't laugh, it sounds great!
'09 Fender Deluxe VM - Fender Sattelite - Marshall G80R CD - Fender Champion 600 - Orange Crush 10

#29 User is offline   CrackLevent 

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 10:26 PM

[quote name='hellion102792]It played great' date=' but only the neck pup worked so I didn't get to hear what it fully sounded like.[/quote']


As soon its done ill load up some pictures and video so you can hear how awesome it sounds.

This is SG Deluxe, rare one. :-"
:D/

#30 User is offline   80LPC 

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 07:20 AM

Quote

I've seen what age does to hide glues. It hardens and shatters, then basically turns to dust.

Like I said, I'd use wood glue, and so would any good pro luthier. You use whatever you want, but be careful recommending anything you don't have personal experience using.

BTW, it takes steam heat to melt wood glue. I've never seen a case where dry heat would affect it.



Hide glue is wood glue.....it was wood glue long before aliphatic was a twinkle in the chemist's eye.

Be careful what you say, lest it be factually incorrect...

http://www.frets.com...t/gluetest.html

Notice how Titebond creeps under tension before it reaches it's melting point.

Notice how when the joints fail in ambient temperatures, the Titebond separates cleanly on the glue line. The hide glue bond continues to hold, and the wood breaks away in a different place. The definition of a high strength bond in headstock repair is when the wood breaks in a different place.

A clear victory for hide glue over aliphatic, or 'wood glue' as you call it.

#31 User is offline   Buzz-T Vetton 

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 07:31 AM

...und hoffentlich sieht das dann besser aus als bei meinem "Scheunenfund"! ;-)

#32 User is offline   Buzz-T Vetton 

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 07:33 AM

...und hoffentlich sieht das dann besser aus, als bei meinem "Scheunenfund"! ;-)
(siehe SG identification / original condition)

#33 User is offline   Dynadude 

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 11:56 AM

Quote



Hide glue is wood glue.....it was wood glue long before aliphatic was a twinkle in the chemist's eye.

Be careful what you say, lest it be factually incorrect...

http://www.frets.com...t/gluetest.html

Notice how Titebond creeps under tension before it reaches it's melting point.

Notice how when the joints fail in ambient temperatures, the Titebond separates cleanly on the glue line. The hide glue bond continues to hold, and the wood breaks away in a different place. The definition of a high strength bond in headstock repair is when the wood breaks in a different place.

A clear victory for hide glue over aliphatic, or 'wood glue' as you call it.


Was the test performed on new joints, or old joints? 20 0r more years of temp and humidity changes will destroy most hide glues, while the wood glue will continue to have enough elasticity to hold for many times as long.
1962 LP/SG Special - 1998 LP Studio DC W/EMG 81/85 pups - '98 Squier Fat Strat - '04 Hand Built Teleblaster W/Vintage Vibe pups - Hand Built Lap Steel W/Fender pups - Kona K2SB A/E Don't laugh, it sounds great!
'09 Fender Deluxe VM - Fender Sattelite - Marshall G80R CD - Fender Champion 600 - Orange Crush 10

#34 User is offline   80LPC 

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 12:53 PM

Franklin (who make Titebond), tested various glues by bonding rock maple blocks together. The blocks were sheared apart by a test machine. Hide glue was the strongest, followed by their most recent (and more expensive) polyurethane glue. An item was found joined with hide glue in Egypt from 2,700 BC. The joints were still tight.

Different glues have different advantages. My point is that broken headstocks create the worst nightmare scenario for people who love Gibsons. It's like a kick in the stomache to see these pictures, let alone experience this from an owners point of view. I think on balance, hot hide glue just has that little extra leeway in strength and temperature resistance to make it the number one choice. I looked into this in some detail, and if I find what I think is some interesting information I like to share it.

#35 User is offline   Dynadude 

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 01:49 PM

Quote

Franklin (who make Titebond), tested various glues by bonding rock maple blocks together. The blocks were sheared apart by a test machine. Hide glue was the strongest, followed by their most recent (and more expensive) polyurethane glue. An item was found joined with hide glue in Egypt from 2,700 BC. The joints were still tight.

Different glues have different advantages. My point is that broken headstocks create the worst nightmare scenario for people who love Gibsons. It's like a kick in the stomache to see these pictures, let alone experience this from an owners point of view. I think on balance, hot hide glue just has that little extra leeway in strength and temperature resistance to make it the number one choice. I looked into this in some detail, and if I find what I think is some interesting information I like to share it.


That's cool. I appreciate the info.

I'm sure that there are stronger glues around these days, and my carpentry experience ended about 14 years ago. The newest thing for many of the standard uses could very well have gone to synthetics.

The only drawback I can point out, would be the cleanup aspect for some synthetics. A repair that would be an easy affair for an amateur could turn into a nightmare, if the overspill cannot be easily removed.

Peace? [-(
1962 LP/SG Special - 1998 LP Studio DC W/EMG 81/85 pups - '98 Squier Fat Strat - '04 Hand Built Teleblaster W/Vintage Vibe pups - Hand Built Lap Steel W/Fender pups - Kona K2SB A/E Don't laugh, it sounds great!
'09 Fender Deluxe VM - Fender Sattelite - Marshall G80R CD - Fender Champion 600 - Orange Crush 10

#36 User is offline   80LPC 

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 09:17 AM

Peace dude =D>

#37 User is offline   pokpak17 

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 08:54 PM

I reckon you to contact Gibson customer service. :-k/
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#38 User is offline   CrackLevent 

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 11:28 PM

Does anybody know where I can buy a tremolo / vibrola for my guitar.

None of bigsby, I would like to get one of the original gibson.

:D :D

#39 User is offline   Marcelo 

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 10:22 AM

Try to look on ebay for a tremolo, maybe you can get lucky there.

I am glad to hear you went to a pro on this fix. This is not a cheap guitar where you want to start learning carpentry on. If it was a cheap $100 guitar, then I would say, go ahead a do it yourself, but this is a vintage guitar and it might be worth more than you think. If this neck is not repaired right, you will be damaging its resale value tremendously. The pro will fix it right and will hide the repair as best he can.

#40 User is offline   CrackLevent 

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 04:14 AM

It's ****ing ready and it's incredible!!

Respect to the pro!! =D>

The sound is like wooooooooow!!!!

Everything works (Pickup's, Electric, etc.) even if it's old

Really amazing


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All I need now is a original Gibson tremolo for SG Deluxe

But I will get it sooner or later. O:)

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