matt301273 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Hi all, I would appreciate some advice on setting up my Epiphone Dot guitar. First off, I have been trying to eliminate a fret buzz problem by setting the correct amount of relief. I have noticed that when I loosen off the truss rod to give more relief it goes really loose and then goes tight again as I turn counter clockwise...this does have the effect of creating more bow in the neck...Is this normal? Perhpas it has a dual truss rod? I would like to get some rough specs for relief...Capoing at 1st fret...where should I be pressing on the fretboard? 12th fret 15 th fret and how much relief...0.10...? More...I play rock and blues mainly and I have noticed a fret buzz...It's not really bad but it is there..I am using ernie Ball jazz/bluess 11 gauge strings...I have a feeler gauge and need some advice...I Have set the relief at 0.011" whilst capoing onm the 1st fret and holding down the lower e at fret 15...Is this good? I would also like to know what the general string height at 12th fret is generally accepted as normal for this kind of guitar...I have gone for 3/64 on the treble side which is fine and 5/64ths on the bass side but I am getting a uniform buzz (very slight but there) all the way up the fret board...Even if I set the action ridiculously high...I still get the buzz with a fairly hard attack..Maybe you can never eliminate all buzz? Despite these issues, it's a nice guitar and I really want to learn how to set it up nice myself rahter than hand it over to a stranger...Any advice appreciated Best Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amx05462 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 uh i had that happen with my grandsons sg. sounds like you got truss rod problems. it should not go loose then get tight in the same turn by any means. if you just bought it take it back imedaitly and get another one. mmy grandsons ended up stripped out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaSTuS Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Hi Matt and welcome to the forums, great bunch of guys around here, I hope you like the place, and congrats on Dot, HNGD, be great to see some pics if you have some. I always set my fretboard dead straight when the strings are untensioned, then when the stings are tensioned it creates a small amount of relief naturally. To check it I capo at the 1st, as you say, then I fret just past the fret where the neck joins the body, I look for a gap about the thickness of a business card, about 0.4mm to 0.5mm (approx 0.015" to 0.020") halfway between those two frets. I then lower the bridge just until the strings start to buzz, and then go up again until they just stop buzzing under heavy strumming, but if you really dig in then you'll get the slightest hint of buzz. That's my personal preferences of course, but I can get a nice low action that way, I don't bother measuring string heights at 12, if I follow the procedure above, I know they'll be where I want them. The reason I didn't give the fret numbers for the neck/body join and the halfway point is because that's varies on different models, but using my method is universal (for me anyway) across pretty much all models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaSTuS Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 uh i had that happen with my grandsons sg. sounds like you got truss rod problems. it should not go loose then get tight in the same turn by any means. if you just bought it take it back imedaitly and get another one. mmy grandsons ended up stripped out. Of course it should, that's how a double acting truss rod works, it's changing from compression mode to expansion mode (of the neck, not the rod), there's a little clearance so the nut can turn and that gives that loose sensation between the mode changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis G Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 sounds like you got truss rod problems. it should not go loose then get tight in the same turn by any means. if you just bought it take it back imedaitly and get another one. +1 on the truss rod issue. As for your settings, I'm 3/64 on the treble side and 1/16 on the bass, and I have no issues at all. I'm thinking your truss rod is toast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaSTuS Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I have noticed that when I loosen off the truss rod to give more relief it goes really loose and then goes tight again as I turn counter clockwise...this does have the effect of creating more bow in the neck...Is this normal? Yes it is Matt, as explained above, and shown in the pic below to illustrate the point. +1 on the truss rod issue. Again, that's exactly how double acting truss-rods are supposed to operate, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what the OP has experienced in this regard. Do you guys need pictures ... I have 60 guitars of my own to maintain, and I do all my own work, absolutely everything, I've experienced exactly the same thing on many, many occasoins, I have also read up extensively on the subject and worked in the mechanical engineering and design fields for over 20 years, so I understand this extremely simple mechanism very well indeed. The small gap of approx 1mm at the end of the truss-rod is the reason it will go slack when transitioning between compression and expansion modes of operation, and while this pic shows a Fender style setup, the concept is exactly the same for Gibson based guitars, just installed in the opposite direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis G Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Again, that's exactly how double acting truss-rods are supposed to operate, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what the OP has experienced in this regard. Do you guys need pictures ... Don't need pix. Understand double truss rods, but MY Dot doesn't have one, hence my truss rod comment. Learn something new everyday if his Dot has a double TR. My bad, if so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaSTuS Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Don't need pix. Understand double truss rods, but MY Dot doesn't have one, hence my truss rod comment. Learn something new everyday if his Dot has a double TR. My bad, if so. Dennis, those issues addressed by the OP just wouldn't happen on a single acting truss-rod, no matter how damaged it is. The fact that the tension comes back on after a brief slack period and it continues to adjust the relief in the same manner is exactly how a double acting chappy would be expected to perform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArgonautIOI Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I had some of the same issues with my DOT. Even after getting truss rod adjustments done I still had buzz, I have noticed on some dots around 2,3,4th frets is sometimes high and need to be either taken down a bit or take a rubber mallet and make sure they are seated correctly. ArGo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amx05462 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Yes it is Matt, as explained above, and shown in the pic below to illustrate the point. Again, that's exactly how double acting truss-rods are supposed to operate, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what the OP has experienced in this regard. Do you guys need pictures ... I have 60 guitars of my own to maintain, and I do all my own work, absolutely everything, I've experienced exactly the same thing on many, many occasoins, I have also read up extensively on the subject and worked in the mechanical engineering and design fields for over 20 years, so I understand this extremely simple mechanism very well indeed. The small gap of approx 1mm at the end of the truss-rod is the reason it will go slack when transitioning between compression and expansion modes of operation, and while this pic shows a Fender style setup, the concept is exactly the same for Gibson based guitars, just installed in the opposite direction. your right about how a double truss rod works, were currently making parts for ovation where i work. the problem with that is. and this is my opinion only. i have two dots a wildkat a 56 lp gold top and an sg. all epiphones. none of them has a double action truss rod in them. possibly the elitist ones do . but none of mine have it. i can tell you that how they work is this . there is a left handed thread in the nut and a right handed thread on the outside. theres a rod in center and a bar on the bottom of the outside thread. so what your describing is the shift in the slop of the threads when changing direction . what i mean by this is . no matter which way you turn the double threaded nut. it reverses and forwards at the same time because of the two threads being oposite of each other. my guess is he has a single action threaded rod in his dot based on my own 5 epiphones that have that and the sg that i took apart after it stripped out to find. just that a striped out truss rod. not the nut but the rod itself. most likely the material was cheap 12L14 leaded steel. under too much pressure and if the threads are to the low side. this will strip out.. just for info sake. i do this every day for a living. . i had made a stainless steel replacement nut had it been the nut i would have been able to fix it once i got the old nut off. but... it was the single action rod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amx05462 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Yes it is Matt, as explained above, and shown in the pic below to illustrate the point. Again, that's exactly how double acting truss-rods are supposed to operate, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what the OP has experienced in this regard. Do you guys need pictures ... I have 60 guitars of my own to maintain, and I do all my own work, absolutely everything, I've experienced exactly the same thing on many, many occasoins, I have also read up extensively on the subject and worked in the mechanical engineering and design fields for over 20 years, so I understand this extremely simple mechanism very well indeed. The small gap of approx 1mm at the end of the truss-rod is the reason it will go slack when transitioning between compression and expansion modes of operation, and while this pic shows a Fender style setup, the concept is exactly the same for Gibson based guitars, just installed in the opposite direction. your right about how a double truss rod works, were currently making parts for ovation where i work. the problem with that is. and this is my opinion only. i have two dots a wildkat a 56 lp gold top and an sg. all epiphones. none of them has a double action truss rod in them. possibly the elitist ones do . but none of mine have it. i can tell you that how they work is this . there is a left handed thread in the nut and a right handed thread on the outside. theres a rod in center and a bar on the bottom of the outside thread. so what your describing is the shift in the slop of the threads when changing direction . what i mean by this is . no matter which way you turn the double threaded nut. it reverses and forwards at the same time because of the two threads being oposite of each other. my guess is he has a single action threaded rod in his dot based on my own 5 epiphones that have that and the sg that i took apart after it stripped out to find. just that a striped out truss rod. not the nut but the rod itself. most likely the material was cheap 12L14 leaded steel. under too much pressure and if the threads are to the low side. this will strip out.. just for info sake. i do this every day for a living. . i had made a stainless steel replacement nut had it been the nut i would have been able to fix it once i got the old nut off. but... it was the single action rod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amx05462 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 btw the one you have pictured is a cheaper made version of the ovation rod done with a welded end. where as ours is made out of 4140 hard steel. double threaded and broached for the allen wrench out of one piece of stock. basicly the threaded portion ends up being like a pipe thats threaded externally and internally. ours does not bind because the thread is the same pitch inside and out. and also a finer thread than the one pictured so you have a finer ajustment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaSTuS Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 The reason I was adamant it was a double acting rod was the characteristics described in the OP. A single action rod simply would not exhibit those characteristics, while it could have a slack section in the thread and could bind up again, this could be symptomatic of a binding or cross-threaded section of the thread, but for the neck to continue to adjust in the correct direction (relief in this case, turning ccw) once it bound up again just wouldn't happen in the case of a single action rod, if it was cross threaded (rod, nut or both) the nut would simply bind up without very much movement laterally at all, it certainly wouldn't continue to allow the fine adjustment in the correct direction as described in the OP. Btw: the pic was the best I could find on google images at the time, and get into the post in a timely manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amx05462 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 The reason I was adamant it was a double acting rod was the characteristics described in the OP. A single action rod simply would not exhibit those characteristics, while it could have a slack section in the thread and could bind up again, this could be symptomatic of a binding or cross-threaded section of the thread, but for the neck to continue to adjust in the correct direction (relief in this case, turning ccw) once it bound up again just wouldn't happen in the case of a single action rod, if it was cross threaded (rod, nut or both) the nut would simply bind up without very much movement laterally at all, it certainly wouldn't continue to allow the fine adjustment in the correct direction as described in the OP. Btw: the pic was the best I could find on google images at the time, and get into the post in a timely manner. i have to disagree. the one in the afore mentioned sg. bound up then slipped then i could turn it forever and got nothing. just before it happened i was getting ajustment. hey maybe im wrong but lets face it . the thing is defenitly not working right. and unless epiphone has changed there ways . theres no d a truss rod in there. so even if hes getting some ajustment ... in my opinion he may be lucky this time . but maybe not so next ajustment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaSTuS Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 i have to disagree. the one in the afore mentioned sg. bound up then slipped then i could turn it forever and got nothing. just before it happened i was getting ajustment. Yeah, that's what I mean though, he's still getting that adjustment, so as it stands I think it's working as it should, I understand what you mean about if it was just slipping and doing nothing, but I don't think he's experienced that judging by the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amx05462 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 well i guess we have to wait and see what comes of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordy01 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Regardless of the truss rod being a double action, or single, the fret buzz could be from a nut that has been cut too low. No matter how high the bridge is raised the strings will still buzz if the nut is too low. Or, it could be a high fret. Or not enough relief. Without actually seeing the guitar it is too hard to diagnose the problem. We could go back and forth for a while and not get it right. There is some pretty good info on setup in the DIY section in the Lounge. Check it out. Maybe there will be something there that will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSS Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I am seeing the same thing with my brand new DOT studio. If I try to turn the truss rod nut counter clockwise, it loosens up and then gets snug (I didn't turn it any further after this, I basically barely got it to the point where it doesn't feel loose). It sure seems to be functioning the way a dual action rod would work, but I've read that Epiphone uses single action rods. It is brand new, so I don't see how the rod could be stripped? The other thing is that the center part (where you insert the allen wrench) turns, while the outside stays stationary. In other words, it's almost as if the broached "allen nut" piece is inside of a cylinder. I'm just trying to get clarification on what type of rod this is, and if mine is stripped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat-o-steve Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 If your truss rod tightens up, it is not stripped. If it turns and turns with little or no resistance, and never seems to snug up, then you know it is stripped or broken. If adjusting the truss rod adds and removes relief, then it is working, even though some guitars adjust better than others. If you cannot eliminate fret buzz from neck adjustments and string height adjustments, then your issue is uneven fret height. Level, recrown and polish the frets, then set your guitar up again and you will be playing smooth as silk ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArgonautIOI Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Hi all, I would appreciate some advice on setting up my Epiphone Dot guitar. First off, I have been trying to eliminate a fret buzz problem by setting the correct amount of relief. I have noticed that when I loosen off the truss rod to give more relief it goes really loose and then goes tight again as I turn counter clockwise...this does have the effect of creating more bow in the neck...Is this normal? Perhpas it has a dual truss rod? I would like to get some rough specs for relief...Capoing at 1st fret...where should I be pressing on the fretboard? 12th fret 15 th fret and how much relief...0.10...? More...I play rock and blues mainly and I have noticed a fret buzz...It's not really bad but it is there..I am using ernie Ball jazz/bluess 11 gauge strings...I have a feeler gauge and need some advice...I Have set the relief at 0.011" whilst capoing onm the 1st fret and holding down the lower e at fret 15...Is this good? I would also like to know what the general string height at 12th fret is generally accepted as normal for this kind of guitar...I have gone for 3/64 on the treble side which is fine and 5/64ths on the bass side but I am getting a uniform buzz (very slight but there) all the way up the fret board...Even if I set the action ridiculously high...I still get the buzz with a fairly hard attack..Maybe you can never eliminate all buzz? Despite these issues, it's a nice guitar and I really want to learn how to set it up nice myself rahter than hand it over to a stranger...Any advice appreciated Best Matt I used to set my guitars up myself but found its worth the money to have a good Tech look at it. Argo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueman335 Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 The best thing any guitar owner can do is get Dan Erlewine's book 'How to make your electric guitar play great' (from StewMac). Tells you everything about set ups, Gibson and Fendr styles. Most of it is very simple and doesn't require previous skills or experience. When it comes to fret leveling, yes, take it to a tech. But for basic set ups, you can, and should, do that yourself. Know your instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heironymous Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I had exactly the same problem with my Dot. I bought it recently second-hand but in tip-top condition. Only problem was that the strings were too high above the FB. I lowered the bridge which helped but that alone was not enough. I could see that the neck was bending forward under the tension of the strings, but even when the strings were slackened off there was still a noticeable curvature in the neck when viewed from the side. I removed the truss rod adjuster cover plate and started to adjust the truss rod tension but to my surprise, turning clockwise just slackened the truss rod and did not tighten it as I expected. I did find however that if I went anti-clockwise the tension started to build. That resulted in my reading many posts on the net including this thread! Taking my courage in both hands I went back and turned clockwise as I originally intended. I went through the slack region fairly quickly and the tension started to rise. I discovered the strings had pulled down on to the FB and it was now flat with no relief. It did not take much movement to do this compared with other guitars I have adjusted. In fact I had to back off slightly to get the setting just right. You can best check by putting a capo across at the first fret and pressing the strings down at a high fret and checking for a small fret to string gap (5-10 thou) in the mid position. Such a relief that there was nothing seriously wrong with the guitar. It is now very playable. I have to add that adjusting the truss cannot always be depended on to correct a guitar with poor action, but often it's just what is needed. I guess the logic is that the guitar is likely set up properly when it is made, but the neck curvature is sensitive to string selection and humidity changes. Just make small adjustments and check the effect each time. Rod in Ottawa. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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