Any top wrappers on the forum...?

[tinman1]

Howdy all,

 

Got A Les Paul Studio from ebay and once appropriately setup (with the tailpiece raised off the top) I noticed quite ugly paint cracking and peeling around the metal plugs that accept the tailpiece poles.

 

I started researching on forums what height the tailpiece should be (i.e. wondering if its ok to snug it down against the top to cover up the cracked paint) and came across the option of top wrapping the strings. Apparently Joe Bonamassa does it.....having seen him in Edinburgh last week I can vouch for his tone! See here Seymour Duncan blog post on top wrapping

 

The supposed benefits are improved string "slinkiness" and improved sustain. There is an anecdotal potential downside of increased string breakage due to more contact with metal.

 

So I've just top wrap strung my guitar in this manner and adjusted the bridge height accordingly....

More slinky?... not 100% sure about that one yet to be honest.

More sustain?... yup sustain seems to be noticably improved. And the paint damage is almost completely covered up!

 

Didn't seem to need to adjust the truss rod or intonation either.

 

Any strong feelings out there about top wrapping (good, bad, indifferent)??

[nick_s]

I'll be tempted to give this a try when I next change the strings. I too have a little poor finishing around the bridge studs on my Studio so this could potentially help me with that and the increased sustain :) That said, the sustain I have is pretty good, increasing it will be a huge huge sustain!

[tinman1]

I also like the idea of reducing the variables in setting up the guitar...tailpiece all the way down, bridge height adjusted to give desired action.

[NHTom]

I've been considering giving this a try myself.

 

Been reading up on it when I can and it seems part of the added sustain is attributed to having the studs locked down tight to the body for more contact.

 

My only question...........does it scar the tail piece where they go over? I'd hate to not like it and find I've scarred up the tail piece.

 

NHTom

[nick_s]

I've been considering giving this a try myself.

 

Been reading up on it when I can and it seems part of the added sustain is attributed to having the studs locked down tight to the body for more contact.

 

My only question...........does it scar the tail piece where they go over? I'd hate to not like it and find I've scarred up the tail piece.

 

NHTom

 

I would strongly suggest it does, as metal will marr metal when rubbed against each other :) Tailpieces are cheap enough to get one to experiment with :)

[tinman1]

My only question...........does it scar the tail piece where they go over? I'd hate to not like it and find I've scarred up the tail piece.

 

NHTom

 

I guess realistically with the strings tight over the tailpiece they're bound to cut a slight groove or scratch the chrome. The tailpiece/ stop bar is an easy replacement though if required.

[NHTom]

True.......can pick one up cheap just in case.

NHTom

[BobF_]

Two of my LPs are top wrapped and I love it. The tail pieces are all the way down and the improvement is real.

 

As soon as I find an inexpensive replacement gold tp, the B7 will get top wrapped as well.

 

Do it - you know you want to :-)

 

http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Gear---Tech/en-us/There-s-More-Than-One-Way-To-String-An-Axe.aspx

[capmaster]

I would strongly suggest it does, as metal will marr metal when rubbed against each other :) Tailpieces are cheap enough to get one to experiment with :)

Being cheap is not valid for all tailpieces. The lightweight aluminum tailpiece coming on many Custom Shop guitars isn't cheap at all:

http://store.gibson.com/historic-lightweight-tailpiece/

Also consider that gold- or nickel-plated surfaces are more sensitive than chrome-plated ones.

[nick_s]

Being cheap is not valid for all tailpieces. The lightweight aluminum tailpiece coming on many Custom Shop guitars isn't cheap at all:

http://store.gibson....ight-tailpiece/

Also consider that gold- or nickel-plated surfaces are more sensitive than chrome-plated ones.

 

Oh that I know, I was implying it is cheap enough to get a 'cheap' tailpiece to experiment with (ie, use for top wrapping), saving your stock (chances are, better) tailpiece for 'best' :)

[capmaster]

Oh that I know, I was implying it is cheap enough to get a 'cheap' tailpiece to experiment with (ie, use for top wrapping), saving your stock (chances are, better) tailpiece for 'best' :)

To achieve a valid result, the tailpieces should be of same make and material - not plating but core. There is a huge difference in response and tone buildup between brass and aluminum stopbars. This could completely foul up an intended comparison and eventually revert the result into its opposite.

 

Aluminum tailpieces contribute a lot to the so-called "old" sound, more than any stringing method can do. A reasonably priced third party version of them (made in Germany by ABM - http://www.thomann.de/gb/abm_3020na_stop_tail.htm - also available in chrome or gold) is widely spread here for modifications of Les Paul guitars. They typically allow for lower string action due to their softer response and increase sustain. I was told that using a chrome-plated one on a 2013 Traditional will bring it very close to the tone of an R8 or R9 despite of the different Tune-O-Matic bridge.

 

However, I decided to go with the TP-6 on all hardtail Gibsons except my Custom Shop LP featuring a nickel-plated aluminum tailpiece stock since the TP-6 isn't offered in nickel. My ca. 1973 L6-S had a chrome-plated aluminum tailpiece stock but I preferred the TP-6 here, although I had to sacrifice a little sustain and increase string action significantly. When replacing a brass tailpiece, reaction and sustain of the related guitars - three Les Pauls, two SGs and two 2011 L6Ses - stayed the same.

[nick_s]

To achieve a valid result, the tailpieces should be of same make and material - not plating but core. There is a huge difference in response and tone buildup between brass and aluminum stopbars. This could completely foul up an intended comparison and eventually revert the result into its opposite.

 

Aluminum tailpieces contribute a lot to the so-called "old" sound, more than any stringing method can do. A reasonably priced third party version of them (made in Germany by ABM - http://www.thomann.d...a_stop_tail.htm - also available in chrome or gold) is widely spread here for modifications of Les Paul guitars. They typically allow for lower string action due to their softer response and increase sustain. I was told that using a chrome-plated one on a 2013 Traditional will bring it very close to the tone of an R8 or R9 despite of the different Tune-O-Matic bridge.

 

However, I decided to go with the TP-6 on all hardtail Gibsons except my Custom Shop LP featuring a nickel-plated aluminum tailpiece stock since the TP-6 isn't offered in nickel. My ca. 1973 L6-S had a chrome-plated aluminum tailpiece stock but I preferred the TP-6 here, although I had to sacrifice a little sustain and increase string action significantly. When replacing a brass tailpiece, reaction and sustain of the related guitars - three Les Pauls, two SGs and two 2011 L6Ses - stayed the same.

 

That bold bit was the point I was making :)

 

I've even found a Kluson aluminium tailpiece for even less than the one available from Thomann (£24 as opposed to £46), so the options are there for preserving that aspect of tone and what not whilst reaping the benefits of top wrapping :)

[Riffster]

I hate top wrapping, I prefer the stiffer feel on my strings and the sustain as a result.

 

Reducing the angle at the bridge and making the strings slinkier in feel is not going to give you more sustain. Lowering the tailpiece does not give more sustain either.

 

I can appreciate top wrapping if you like the feel of how your guitar plays.

[BobF_]

I hate top wrapping, I prefer the stiffer feel on my strings and the sustain as a result.

 

Reducing the angle at the bridge and making the strings slinkier in feel is not going to give you more sustain. Lowering the tailpiece does not give more sustain either.

 

I can appreciate top wrapping if you like the feel of how your guitar plays.

 

I guess we'll have to disagree. Tightening the TP all the way down on *my* guitars has noticeably increased sustain and the strength of vibrations felt in the body of the guitar while playing.

 

Not saying you or anybody else should prefer top wrapping ... just that I do.

[capmaster]

That bold bit was the point I was making :)

 

I've even found a Kluson aluminium tailpiece for even less than the one available from Thomann (£24 as opposed to £46), so the options are there for preserving that aspect of tone and what not whilst reaping the benefits of top wrapping :)

There may be a difference in making. Probably the cheaper ones are of cast aluminum while the more expensive use a forged aluminum alloy. There are huge differences in price as I know from people using light-alloy rims on cars. Forged ones cost about twice the money. Forging will create very different properties than casting, even if the metal alloys used basically may differ only slightly in their composition.

[Riffster]

Oh I hear you, yea we can disagree.

 

To me there is no logical reason why lowering the tail piece would increase sustain, especially if top-wrapping the tailpiece is still as loose between the two set flanges of the studs, actually top-wrapping makes the tail piece sit at an odd angle against the studs. It makes more contact on top and less against the core of the stud.

 

Some aftermarket studs have specs that allow for a tighter fit against the tail-piece, whether fixed or screw-able. Those do make more contact with the tail-piece.

 

Still, what happens after the contact with the nut and bridge saddles has a much lesser impact on sustain, but if you hear more sustain and you like the feel of the guitar better that's all that really matters.

 

 

Couple of things to consider:

 

- Historics have a different neck angle and ABR bridges, you can actually bolt down the aluminum tail piece all the way down without top-wrapping. The E string does not make contact with the back of the bridge as it would on a Nashville bridge. Sure, you can top-wrap a historic if you want (like Joe Bonamassa) but this is for preference.

 

- Make sure you do not go back between normal and top-wrapping, the stud inserts can actually get lose, at least this happened to a V that I bought used.

[nick_s]

There may be a difference in making. Probably the cheaper ones are of cast aluminum while the more expensive use a forged aluminum alloy. There are huge differences in price as I know from people using light-alloy rims on cars. Forged ones cost about twice the money. Forging will create very different properties than casting, even if the metal alloys used basically may differ only slightly in their composition.

 

Of that I have no doubt :) I'm going to try one just because I can, it'll be an interesting experiment. I may even for the craic do some recording and note down the differences in tone and sustain (of course tone is subjective, but I'll be using the same settings across the tests) :)

[Riffster]

Use the same strings too, lot of folks get new strings when they replace the tail piece and then compare and well I don't have to tell you that is not scientific.

 

By the way there are also steel and titanium tail pieces as well as steel bridges or titanium, brass or nylon saddles.

 

Steel bridges do make a difference in sound, not saying better just different.

[nick_s]

Use the same strings too, lot of folks get new strings when they replace the tail piece and then compare and well I don't have to tell you that is not scientific.

 

By the way there are also steel and titanium tail pieces as well as steel bridges or titanium, brass or nylon saddles.

 

Steel bridges do make a difference in sound, not saying better just different.

 

I'll be using new strings for each test, from the same manufacturer and the same gauge etc, using the stock TOM bridge that came with my Studio :)

[capmaster]

Of that I have no doubt :) I'm going to try one just because I can, it'll be an interesting experiment. I may even for the craic do some recording and note down the differences in tone and sustain (of course tone is subjective, but I'll be using the same settings across the tests) :)

I'm absolutely with you, that's the way to go.

 

There may happen awkward things. I recorded several tracks clean straight out of the jack, five times on five Les Paul guitars, four Gibsons and one Epiphone. I used the series coil setting provided by them all, and all the three toggle switch positions each. In a blind test with my son switching the tracks, I was unable to sonically discern my Gibson LP Standard 2012 with Dual Burstbuckers Pro from my Epiphone 1960 Tribute Plus featuring stock the Gibson '57 Classic/'57 Classic Plus combo unless weak notes appeared - A 4 on the Gibson, and A flat 4 on the Epiphone... Incredible when considering the price ratio of about 4.5 : 1

[nick_s]

I'm absolutely with you, that's the way to go.

 

There may happen awkward things. I recorded several tracks clean straight out of the jack, five times on five Les Paul guitars, four Gibsons and one Epiphone. I used the series coil setting provided by them all, and all the three toggle switch positions each. In a blind test with my son switching the tracks, I was unable to sonically discern my Gibson LP Standard 2012 with Dual Burstbuckers Pro from the Epiphone 1960 Tribute Plus featuring stock the Gibson '57 Classic/'57 Classic Plus combo unless weak notes appeared - A 4 on the Gibson, and A flat 4 on the Epiphone... Incredible when considering the price ratio of about 4.5 : 1

 

It makes my bank balance wince, given I nearly dropped £3k on a PRS SC58 a short while ago. Granted, it sounded infinitely better than any other single cut they offer, but still, it's an awful lot of money where realistically speaking, once in the mix, it's very difficult to tell what guitar is what when paired against similar spec'd instruments.

[tinman1]

I guess we'll have to disagree. Tightening the TP all the way down on *my* guitars has noticeably increased sustain and the strength of vibrations felt in the body of the guitar while playing.

 

Not saying you or anybody else should prefer top wrapping ... just that I do.

 

Agreed...1 week ago I'd never heard of top wrapping and having now given my guitar a good thrashing after a restring I can say that there is almost certainly a difference....not a huge one but a discernable difference nonetheless.

 

The sustain is the main one. Despite some earlier comments I can see why that would occur from a "physics" point of view: less dissipation of string vibration from tailpiece to guitar body given a shorter distance to travel plus a more secure, snugged down tailpiece.

 

There are probably too many variables involved to definitively comment on slinkiness and playability for now (slightly altered bridge height/ action, new strings, a possible placebo effect) but the guitar is no less playable when strung this way. And cosmetically too the peeling paint at the base of the tailpiece is covered (as shallow as that sounds!). I'm gonna stick with it on that particular guitar anyway.

[cjmwrx]

Agreed...1 week ago I'd never heard of top wrapping and having now given my guitar a good thrashing after a restring I can say that there is almost certainly a difference....not a huge one but a discernable difference nonetheless.

 

The sustain is the main one. Despite some earlier comments I can see why that would occur from a "physics" point of view: less dissipation of string vibration from tailpiece to guitar body given a shorter distance to travel plus a more secure, snugged down tailpiece.

 

There are probably too many variables involved to definitively comment on slinkiness and playability for now (slightly altered bridge height/ action, new strings, a possible placebo effect) but the guitar is no less playable when strung this way. And cosmetically too the peeling paint at the base of the tailpiece is covered (as shallow as that sounds!). I'm gonna stick with it on that particular guitar anyway.

 

I agree with all of the above.

 

Bends to half and full feel normal. However bends to 1 1/2 and full 2 steps take much less effort.

[capmaster]

I agree with all of the above.

 

Bends to half and full feel normal. However bends to 1 1/2 and full 2 steps take much less effort.

Sorry, but this simply is not that way in reality.

[cjmwrx]

Sorry, but this simply is not that way in reality.

 

 

Shared my experience. Nice to know that you know it all. In the future, I will reach out to you if I have a question I am not sure about.