Any top wrappers on the forum...?

[Sgt.]

Howdy all,

 

Got A Les Paul Studio from ebay and once appropriately setup (with the tailpiece raised off the top) I noticed quite ugly paint cracking and peeling around the metal plugs that accept the tailpiece poles.

 

I started researching on forums what height the tailpiece should be (i.e. wondering if its ok to snug it down against the top to cover up the cracked paint) and came across the option of top wrapping the strings. Apparently Joe Bonamassa does it.....having seen him in Edinburgh last week I can vouch for his tone! See here Seymour Duncan blog post on top wrapping

 

The supposed benefits are improved string "slinkiness" and improved sustain. There is an anecdotal potential downside of increased string breakage due to more contact with metal.

 

So I've just top wrap strung my guitar in this manner and adjusted the bridge height accordingly....

More slinky?... not 100% sure about that one yet to be honest.

More sustain?... yup sustain seems to be noticably improved. And the paint damage is almost completely covered up!

 

Didn't seem to need to adjust the truss rod or intonation either.

 

Any strong feelings out there about top wrapping (good, bad, indifferent)??

 

Yup! top wrapped lp studio as well. no complaints. i guess the strings of a heavier guage are easier or 'slinkier' as you might put it. you know, i've long switched to med. guage strings (to stop breaking the high e before the set wears out with lites) and haven't changed strings (or broke one) for a while. Just using a little cleaner cloth to keep dirt off ... I THINK THEY'VE BECOME MORE COMFORTABLE!!! There are lots of guitars that do top wrap stock, but it does work well with an lp studio where you need to get the action down.

Oh yeah, the other thing with the LP Studio is that when the tail has to be set high on the body for whatever reason, the tension could affect the bridge, maybe even break it over time. Getting the tail down to the body and top wrapping was more preferable.

Anybody *underwrap* strings?

[BobF_]

" Oh, do Pay Attention, Double-Oh-Seven..."

 

 

 

 

You failed on the partial aspect. 'Tension' isn't even in question. Try to be on topic.

[capmaster]

... At the end of the day we all sit in a guitar shop, pick up a new guitar and form a subjective opinion about these sorts of things that is based on sound and feel not (dodgy and dubiously applied) mathematical equations.

...

They apply clearly and doubtlessly. Every guitar that is of any use is made according to them. Simply check the spaces between the frets, check and adjust intonation, tune the strings - you couldn't play a single correct note if the equations were dubious or faulty, let alone chords. There are basics no one can escape from, and trying to do so will be punished with inferior performance of the instrument, regardless of playing skill.

[rct]

 

I'm surprised how dismissive some people can be about this.

 

I, for one, offered experience and a long time of life with a lot of guitars to balance what I saw as telling new people that putting strings over the top of the stopbar would make some kind of life changing tone for them. It won't.

 

At the end of the day we all sit in a guitar shop, pick up a new guitar and form a subjective opinion about these sorts of things that is based on sound and feel not (dodgy and dubiously applied) mathematical equations.

 

I have said in my previous posts that I'm not certain about the ease of string bending improvements oft quoted. But if I hear and feel improved sustain or less fret buzz after top wrapping that doesn't mean I'm suddenly irrational and deluded! I have no huge vested interest in top wrapping that is somehow creating bias.

 

If I, for one, called you irrational or deluded, please quote it and put it up here so I can humbly apologize. The last thing I remember was offering the cigarette butt test to demonstrate experience that counters yours, in an effort to let new players know that this stuff is far from cut and dried.

 

I wonder how many of those that shout so loudly about the futility of top wrapping have strongly held views about other aspects of tone (like tailpiece material for example) that are equally untested in terms of real science.....!

 

I, for one, did not shout at you or anyone else. I did tell you and anyone reading this stuff that guitars are the sum of their parts, and that no one little part will make a dull guitar sound great, and no great sounding guitar is easy to make not sound great if you know what you are doing with them.

 

You are being just as dismissive of lots of experience as you seem to be so rankled about others being to you. In the end it is all dogma, it is no more than what you or I or anyone else believes. I do not believe top wrapping increases sustain or improves tone, nor do I find strings touching the back of the bridge when the tailpiece is all the way down, like all of mine, to be a problem, so I see no reason to top wrap at all. And if I had a student today I would continue to teach such.

 

I would only gently and peacefully add that in a year, two years, if you are still top wrapping and have three or four more of this type of guitar and you top wrap them all still, I will find you an anomaly. Anomoly. Anamalee. Whatever. I don't know anyone that has or does for long.

 

So top wrap away, they are your guitars!

 

rct

[Eracer_Team]

one way to tell and keeping math out of it.

 

if someone has a digital fish scale,

string the guitar up "normal" use the fish scale to pull up on the strings and read the measured oz of pull required.

 

then top wrap the string with the same gauge and brand and do the test again.

that will tell you if it takes less oz's to pull the strings.

[capmaster]

Despite of Billy Gibbons, Joe Bonamassa and one of my bandmates being top wrappers, I think they would have found out a long time ago if it was some kind of a holy grail of tone, sustain, string action, intonation, bending or whatever.

 

Think of the forcibly top-wrapped Gibson instruments like the 2nd generetion Les Paul guitars, LP junior, SG junior etc. etc. They improved the LP tailpiece design at Gibson and decided to pull the strings straight through. I guess they checked for top wrapping, too, if not first. Remember that the Tune-O-Matic/Stopbar design change was the final one that made an initially poorly, then so-so performing instrument a great one, still being one of the greatest today and acknowledged as a benchmark among electric guitars.

[tinman1]

They apply clearly and doubtlessly. Every guitar that is of any use is made according to them. Simply check the spaces between the frets, check and adjust intonation, tune the strings - you couldn't play a single correct note if the equations were dubious or faulty, let alone chords. There are basics no one can escape from, and trying to do so will be punished with inferior performance of the instrument, regardless of playing skill.

 

You've totally misunderstood me. I'm not saying that all the maths and physics aren't important (not just for guitars!)...of course they are. I'm saying that when you assess an instrument, for instance sitting with a new guitar in a shop, you go subjectively on feel and sound. You don't start scribbling down and solving equations (I hope). Same with assessing the difference, if any exists, with top wrapping.

 

I'd wager that most here who have quoted formulas and equations, probably found on Wikipedia or otherwise, don't understand their application well enough to apply them effectively in this situation. If I'm wrong and you all have degrees in maths and astrophysics then I apologise.

 

Never have I said that top wrapping is "the holy grail", just that I felt it improved sustain slightly in my (recent) experience.

[tinman1]

I, for one, offered experience and a long time of life with a lot of guitars to balance what I saw as telling new people that putting strings over the top of the stopbar would make some kind of life changing tone for them. It won't.

 

 

 

If I, for one, called you irrational or deluded, please quote it and put it up here so I can humbly apologize. The last thing I remember was offering the cigarette butt test to demonstrate experience that counters yours, in an effort to let new players know that this stuff is far from cut and dried.

 

 

 

I, for one, did not shout at you or anyone else. I did tell you and anyone reading this stuff that guitars are the sum of their parts, and that no one little part will make a dull guitar sound great, and no great sounding guitar is easy to make not sound great if you know what you are doing with them.

 

 

It was really the pseudo-mathematicians I was referring to as being dismissive.

 

When I started this thread I was hoping that I'd get responses from people like yourself with genuine experience. So thanks for your contributions, they are definately food for thought.

 

I totally agree that there are many variables or "parts" that go into making a guitar sound and play well. I'll probably try your method of dropping the tailpiece all the way and setting it up without top wrapping.

[pippy]

...I'll probably try your method of dropping the tailpiece all the way and setting it up without top wrapping...

Please keep us posted.

 

I've obviously had a near-identical experience to rct. All my LPs have their tailpieces screwed right down. They always have been.

I've never had any problems with buzzing even with both E strings touching the rear of the ABR-1s (the rest are clear).

 

I tried top-wrapping just a few years ago to see what the deal was and in my experience it made no difference whatsoever. Not to the feel; not to the sustain.

I've been playing just shy of 40 years so have a pretty fair understanding of how my kit plays and sounds.

 

OTOH I was surprised when I found out that something as simple as trying out a different brand of string manufacturer provided me with strings which were very noticeably 'slinkier' in feel.

I use pure nickel .011s and with this gauge it is easy to notice the difference.

 

But no-one is going to change their mind merely because they read something on the internet.

The only way to find out is to try it for yourself. If you think there is an improvement then you will believe there is an improvement.

 

P.

[Bryan Sutherland]

I use pure nickel .011s and with this gauge it is easy to notice the difference.

 

A little off-topic, but which brand of pure nickel strings do you use, if I may ask? I have been using GHS Nickel Rockers (.011's) for years and love them, but wouldn't mind trying something different for sh*ts and grins...

[capmaster]

You've totally misunderstood me. I'm not saying that all the maths and physics aren't important (not just for guitars!)...of course they are. I'm saying that when you assess an instrument, for instance sitting with a new guitar in a shop, you go subjectively on feel and sound. You don't start scribbling down and solving equations (I hope). Same with assessing the difference, if any exists, with top wrapping.

 

I'd wager that most here who have quoted formulas and equations, probably found on Wikipedia or otherwise, don't understand their application well enough to apply them effectively in this situation. If I'm wrong and you all have degrees in maths and astrophysics then I apologise.

 

Never have I said that top wrapping is "the holy grail", just that I felt it improved sustain slightly in my (recent) experience.

OK, no problem. I got used to applying these formulas since over thirty years, but degrees in astrophysics you will find very seldom among guitarists. There only comes Brian May to my mind.

[Bryan Sutherland]

Billy Gibbons, Joe Bonamassa...

I think Zakk Wylde is a top-wrapper too...

I decided to top-wrap because I read Bonamassa did it, and I like the way he plays. Simple as that. Bonamassa is gonna sound awesome regardless of what kind of guitar he plays, or how he routes his strings. Same with Gibbons, same with Wylde.

[capmaster]

I think Zakk Wylde is a top-wrapper too...

I decided to top-wrap because I read Bonamassa did it, and I like the way he plays. Simple as that. Bonamassa is gonna sound awesome regardless of what kind of guitar he plays, or how he routes his strings. Same with Gibbons, same with Wylde.

+1

[tinman1]

I decided to top-wrap because I read Bonamassa did it, and I like the way he plays. Simple as that.

 

As good a reason as any! After all, half of us probably only play LPs to begin with because of the likes of Page, Slash and other such legends.

 

Also a bit off topic- how would you compare your Bonamassa studio vs your Traditional? I really like the 50s neck on my 2007 studio so a Traditional seems a logical choice when the time comes.

[Bryan Sutherland]

As good a reason as any! After all, half of us probably only play LPs to begin with because of the likes of Page, Slash and other such legends.

 

Also a bit off topic- how would you compare your Bonamassa studio vs your Traditional? I really like the 50s neck on my 2007 studio so a Traditional seems a logical choice when the time comes.

 

Hmmm, where to begin!!! The Bonamassa feels heavier than the Traditional, but they both have big fat necks which I like. I have gone through countless sets of pickups in the Traditional (currently has a set of Sheptones, which will be swapped for 496t/57, new pots and wiring). The Bonamassa currently has a set of the SD Bonamassa Custom shop pickups in it, and it sounds sweet. They are both very nice instruments, and they both get equal playing time, just depends on which one I'm in the mood to noodle around on.

[tinman1]

Hmmm, where to begin!!! The Bonamassa feels heavier than the Traditional, but they both have big fat necks which I like. I have gone through countless sets of pickups in the Traditional (currently has a set of Sheptones, which will be swapped for 496t/57, new pots and wiring). The Bonamassa currently has a set of the SD Bonamassa Custom shop pickups in it, and it sounds sweet. They are both very nice instruments, and they both get equal playing time, just depends on which one I'm in the mood to noodle around on.

 

I've been looking at those Bonamassa pickups longingly but don't think I've got a guitar that would do them justice yet!

 

So you think the quality of the JB studio and traditional is equal then despite the price difference?

 

Seem him live a couple of times now, the last time 5 rows from the front. True genius!

[Bryan Sutherland]

I've been looking at those Bonamassa pickups longingly but don't think I've got a guitar that would do them justice yet!

 

So you think the quality of the JB studio and traditional is equal then despite the price difference?

 

Seem him live a couple of times now, the last time 5 rows from the front. True genius!

 

I would say that they are both of the same quality, the only thing the Trad has that the JB doesn't is some binding. The JB is a Studio with Burstbucker 2/3 pickups and Grover tuners.

I haven't seen Joe in concert yet, but have most of his music and a few Blu Rays. I ordered my JB after watching his Albert Hall Blu Ray... the purchase was inspired by his music and some 21 year-old single malt...

[capmaster]

Don't know the JB Studio but my Traditional 2013 beats the three weight-relieved Standards and all the other guitars of mine with 60s Slim Taper Neck for response and sustain (by the way, any other guitar, too). I can't say if it is the late 50s neck, the massive body, or both, but it clearly does.

 

The pickup thing is somehow ambiguous. There are huge differences between some of my guitars equipped with the '57 Classic/'57 Classic Plus pickups, but on the other hand I can't discern my Epiphone 1960 Tribute LP with the '57 combo from my Gibson LP Standard 2012 with Dual Burstbuckers Pro in the humbucker series mode right out of the jack in a blind test when listening to recorded tracks. There obviously are properties which are evening out each other.

[pippy]

A little off-topic, but which brand of pure nickel strings do you use, if I may ask?...

I don't think it's off-topic at all. Were discussing in part things which make string-bending easier and I mentioned string types so it's all on-topic as far as I can see.

 

I had tried a great many different brands before I settled on Rotosound's pure nickels (I still think they are very, very good).

But out of the blue I was asked by a rep. for D'Addario to evaluate a set of their own pure nickels which they duly sent to me (Thank You!) and it was a real eye-opener.

I had played a great many types of D'A over the years and always found them to be too 'bright' and because I'd never liked the brand's typical sound had neglected to try out their Nickels with the Lesters.

They are still a tiny bit brighter than I like but nothing 1/30th of a tweak of a knob.......I'm sure you get the gist.

Another way of describing them would be "they exhibit a minor trade-off showing marginally less warmth in favour of more clarity".

 

But tone is one thing. We're talking about being Slinky.

My guess is ("I have no 'math' to prove this") that the particular composition of their strings' alloy renders them more ductile than other brands' examples.

 

BTW I've seen many snaps of the Rev. B. F. Gibbons with 'Pearly' in both 'Top-wrapped' and 'Shotgun'd' (apparently - don't blame me!) states. He seems to change from time to time. But he always sounds just like himself regardless.

 

Yup.

 

P.

[Riffster]

Billy Gibbons uses 7's and his signature strings are really slinky even on 10's, I cannot even imagine the feel of 7's

[pippy]

Billy Gibbons uses 7's and his signature strings are really slinky even on 10's, I cannot even imagine the feel of 7's

Yes, Riffster! Crazy!

 

There's a great interview on youtube with his tech' who explained that the Rev. uses .007s except for slide when he used .008s!

 

 

God Only Knows. And the Rev, of course, might have an inside line there.

 

Oddly enough back in the mid/late '70s there was a UK brand of strings called Picato which had sets atarting at .006.

I had a cheap'n'cheerful LP copy which would munch the high E's on these sets as I was stringing up...

 

P.

[BobF_]

7s? I can't even imagine. I can't even deal with 9s on an LP.

[capmaster]

For those who want to feel how slinky it would be, tuning .010" string sets 617 cents flat, a bit more than six half tones, or .011"s 783 cents flat, slightly less than eight half tones, will result in the tension of .007" strings at standard tuning. I once checked this out long ago just for fun. Intonation and fret buzz are critical, and fretting too strong as well as hitting the strings very hard will cause notes starting severely overpitched - remember Heltersekelter by The Beatles and the dynamic "bending" by heavily pounding the open E6th.

[lovethosegibsons]

I top wrap some of my standards. I've done this with les pauls off and on for a lot of years. I've never once thought it changed anything as far as playing/sound I simply think it looks cool as hell on a standard. Now days I use ernie ball super slinky 9's on all my guitars except my explorer which has 10's... I have extremely low action on all of them. The only difference I can tell between the two is with top wrapping If I brush my hand against the back side of the tp it pokes my hand where the string is bent and the wrap is unraveling out and pokes you.

 

 

 

 

[Searcy]

pla·ce·bo ef·fect

 

noun: placebo effect; plural noun: placebo effects

 

1. a beneficial effect, produced by a placebo drug or treatment, that cannot be attributed to the properties of the placebo itself, and must therefore be due to the patient's belief in that treatment.