ES-335 RI's Tone - Hype or Fact

[soundjunkie]

I'm frustrated, looking for a new 335, after the big let down with my recent es-390 purch., which has been returned. I've listened to sound clips for days on end comparing various 335 guitars. Either my hearing is toast or there is some gimickry going on at Gibson. My point of view is that these are tools to make music, not historically accurate art pieces to clutter a closet - players really falling for this? Hey, give me some reason to drop 3k more on a 335. I can't hear ANY difference tonally between stock and RI models. Ya, the Cornell has Lollartrons, dif pickups, dif tone, but in a hb equipped 335, Custom, BB or 57's, hide glue, cedar banding, vos finish, hand selected center blocks and other historically accurate acoutremants, I just can't tell ANY tone dif. Am I crazy or just going deaf? I seriously doubt they sound like the originals. If thats the case, then I'll take the std. MEMPHIS 335 please.

[4Hayden]

Some have found problems with the tone due to the nut,some change to the bone nut as I did. But in my opinion a ES 335 is "the" guitar to own ,closet or every day player.

 

[335guy1281734281]

Since all 335's are basically the same construction, the "tone" differences would be in the pickups, and would mostly be minor differences. IMO, my '97 335 Dot RI plays and sounds as good as any out there. It may not be historically correct but I don't care about that. It's the playability and tone I'm after, Sure, pay more if you want. But for my dollar, a used DOT RI is the best value out there for a true 335.

[badbluesplayer]

Dots are the best value. They're the same guitar as the fancy ones with basic appointments. RI's aren't supposed to sound better or play better, they're just reissues of popular models.

 

Every piece of wood in every Gibson is "hand selected." So I guess it's mostly hype.

[Don335]

My thinking is other than some cosmetic and pickup changes, there isn't a lot of difference. I bought a 2011 flamed top sunburst with a factory installed BIGSBY and I've played the 63 Block Reissue and other than a pickup change and a neck profile there isn't a whole lot of difference. The standard ES-335 dot is still the best bang for the buck!

 

Don335

[Versatile]

ES 335 Dot plain top...

 

Pay more for a figured if appearance is important (no perceptible sound difference)...

 

V

 

[Spoonful]

I really like my 2009 Dot Reissue. It sounds like what I remember an ES-335 sounded like listening to live music back in the mid 60's and early 70's.

 

I owned a '59 Reissue and it sounded different. Not bad, just different. It had the same pickups as the Dot. I tried to get that same sound as the Dot, but it wasn't happening. Got rid of the '59 Reissue and bought a Special Order '59 Reissue that was built to 2013 specs. It sounds different too. However, it is simply one of the best guitars I've ever played and I can make this one sounds like the Dot if I tweak the amp and guitar enough.

 

I have read that the pre-60's 335's sounded different than the later versions so this might explain what I perceive to be a difference in tone.

 

One other really big difference between the '59 Reissues and the later versions is the size of the neck. Both of the '59 reissues have the biggest necks I have ever encountered. The Dot Reissue has the slim taper neck profile.

 

If I could only keep one, I would keep the '59 Reissue.

[Albert]

One tonal difference, which may only be apparent with certain lightly overdriven amps (a tweed Fender Bassman, for example), is the Les Paul-like midrange undertone in sustained, fretted notes that is accentuated by the reissue models with a full-length center block--not half-way or completely routed under the bridge pickup. The '59 and '60 reissues have this, and maybe the very expensive, limited-edition Clapton Crossroads 335. If you only play clean you might never hear this difference. I was struck by it enough that I bought a '60 reissue even though I already had a 345 reissue. (As I understand it, all 345s and 355s have had the block routed under the bridge pickup; the 335s started to have the block partly or completely routed around 1963, but it was inconsistent--Clapton's original '64 had the block intact under the bridge pickup, as can be seen in the video on making the Crossroads 335.)

 

If you listen to Wildwood Music's videos, you can compare the tone of '57 Classics vs. Burstbuckers in the 335s. Of course, you'll hear the difference better if you listen with good-quality headphones or speakers than on a crummy computer speaker.

 

I've played enough vintage 1960s ES-335s to say that the RI '60s come pretty close in tone to some originals; but certainly with the originals and possibly with the reissues, there are those with outstanding tone that are harder to find. And there are some nuances in the tone of the originals that I haven't heard on newer guitars. A lot of it is a matter of personal preference, of course.

[jimmyl51]

I went to a Larry Carlton 'seminar' a number of years ago when I was living in Southern California. A whole bunch of us 'wantabees' were asking Larry about 'this' on his 335 and 'that' on his guitar......and this was before Gibson came out with the Larry Carlton ES-335 model.........anywho Larry starts to laugh and holds up his fingers..........he says 'guys it all comes from these fingers ;>)'............I then went to a gig that Tommy Tedesco gave in West Los Angeles where you had ALL guitar players in the audience. He was playing an OLD and really BEAT UP Ventura and was sounding GREAT on the cheapo Ventura. This fellow was asking T.T. about the pickups, his strings, his action, his........you get the idea.......Tedesco smiles and says 'guys it is all in your frickin....and holds up both hands'..........I became fairly good friends with Mitch Holder who gently told a bunch of us that 'those of us who actually work in the studio biz just don't have the time to spend picking the darn guitar apart...as we have to just play the thing to make money'..........wise words really that I will never forget jim in Maine

[Spoonful]

I would agree that professional musicians are probably more interested in perfecting their playing than they are in their instruments. But I've also noticed that there sure are a lot of professional musicians (not just guitarists) that have selected the right instruments for themselves.

 

Am I obsessed with finding the best guitar for me? Honestly, yeah. But the first time around as a musician in my youth, I played some really wookie gear. And as time went on that gear just wore out to where it was unplayable. I gave up playing because I couldn't afford to replace what I had. When I decided to pick up the guitar again after 30 years, I thought it prudent to try to do it inexpensively until I could gauge my level of commitment. It took me about 2 weeks to realize I was making a mistake and I returned the "starter" setup for something more substantial. I don't regret that decision at all.

 

As I continue to play and learn and improve, I'm learning more about what I like and want in my gear. So, even though I might not be a professional musician who depends on my gear to make a living, I'm a player who is in love with making music and I will not find myself in the same position of giving up something I love because of the quality of my gear.

 

Back to the original question - I think you can find a fantastic 335 Dot that will serve you well as long as you like the neck profile. I think you can also find a reissue that will serve you well and maybe give you more options for neck profiles. Some of the things mentioned about the reissues really don't improve the tone or playability significantly. Build quality can be better with the reissues, but that's not guaranteed.

 

Is it worth $3K more for some of the reissues - only you can decide after playing several examples.

[capmaster]

In my opinion, there are many details depending on woods and wood selection. These both will always depend on the feasible timbers as well as on the persons picking certain pieces for making a particular instrument. One may be able to predict a general behaviour of an individual piece of wood, but not how it will work down to subtle details, let alone its development with age. I experienced with one semi-hollow and many solidbody instruments that there's an overall improvement with age. Every new or better said young guitar of mine had a bit of an overshooting reaction to attack and a more brittle tone, and they became smoother with age, regardless of woods. To me it seems to go faster with mahogany and takes more time for maple, alder, ash and basswood. It is hard for me to evaluate the influence of the particular fretboard timber's aging, so I don't want to put out wild guess here.

[jazzrat]

I guess I've had three levels of recent 335....a Satin, a Dot RI and now a Fat Neck.

From the Satin to the Fat Neck they are priced low to high. There are some differences

in finish and features but to my ear the '57 Classics sounded the same in all of them,

notwithstanding individual differences in the guitars you would find in any

three examples.

[jimmyl51]

One more thing regarding the 335 thing. I would have to say that the majority of the professional players that I got to know when I was in Los Angeles were more concerned with how the guitar played i.e. the action than anything else. These guys could basically play anything that had strings on it and would make it sound good. I used to hang out at Valley Arts Guitars now long gone before Mike McQuire went to work for Gibson in the San Fernando Valley where quite a few of the biggies in the L.A. music business would hang out. A few of these professional guys would be bigtime into the guitar anatomy however I would venture to say that very few of them were in that category. jim in Maine

[soundjunkie]

Thanks for your insight on this. I really think the ES-335 is the most incredible guitar ever conceived. I played a 1980 version Saturday through a Twin and soiled the stool I was sitting on. It had the usual "slim-taper" neck and Gibson's "fretless" frets. In addition, it had a maple, not mahogany neck and also had a factory coil-tap, which put it into the most beautiful and versatile guitar I ever played. The guy wanted stupid money for it, so I think I'm going with a new dot and add the coil tap later.

 

Thanks Henry for keeping this American Icon alive.

[capmaster]

Thanks for your insight on this. I really think the ES-335 is the most incredible guitar ever conceived. I played a 1980 version Saturday through a Twin and soiled the stool I was sitting on. It had the usual "slim-taper" neck and Gibson's "fretless" frets. In addition, it had a maple, not mahogany neck and also had a factory coil-tap, which put it into the most beautiful and versatile guitar I ever played. The guy wanted stupid money for it, so I think I'm going with a new dot and add the coil tap later.

 

Thanks Henry for keeping this American Icon alive.

In 1985, I checked out a Gibson ES-335 for the first time in my life. I don't know if it was made in 1984 or 1985. It had a maple neck, rosewood fingerboard with dot inlays, maple center block, trapeze strap knobs, and was finished in Vintage Sunburst. The screw which held the upper strap button below the neck-body junction was screwed in in a strongly tilted position with next to no space beween the upper corner of the knob and the back to pull the strap through. There also was a run of clear varnish in the angle of the bass side of the neck joint, about 20 mm (approx. 13/16 inch) long and 3 mm (approx. 1/8 inch) wide.

 

The worst thing, however, was its sound. Don't know how it would have developed with time, but it still is the dullest ES style guitar I ever checked out in my life.

 

Later the same day I got to know the Weimann Blues Bird, a German made ES style model I never had heard of before. I put it to the test - what a difference! To make it short, I later went with it, and it is my only ES style guitar still. It came with a mahogany through-neck with rosewood fretboard whereas top, sides and back are made of maple. There is a pair of Seymour Duncan P90s, a wraparound tailpiece with six adjustable bridges, and it is finished with a shellac-coloured, natural vintage translucent varnish. The P90s made me think some time because I would have preferred humbuckers, but I left it all original. It is the best ES-style guitar I ever played, would sell used for a fair multiple of its price that time, and its sustain is awesome. Except my Les Paul Traditional 2013 and Alex Lifeson Les Paul Axcess, it blows even with flatwounds every guitar in my arsenal including the weight relieved Les Pauls over the entire fretboard, and despite of that it has the typical percussive bite of the string attack regardless if strung roundwound or flatwound. It is the most distinctive guitar I ever got to know.

[Mutato]

In 1985, I checked out a Gibson ES-335 for the first time in my life. I don't know if it was made in 1984 or 1985. It had a maple neck, rosewood fingerboard with dot inlays, maple center block, trapeze strap knobs, and was finished in Vintage Sunburst. The screw which held the upper strap knob below the neck-body junction was screwed in in a strongly tilted position with next to no space beween the upper corner of the knob and the back to pull the strap through. There also was a run of clear varnish in the angle of the bass side of the neck joint, about 20 mm (approx. 13/16 inch) long and 3 mm (approx. 1/8 inch) wide.

 

The worst thing, however, was its sound. Don't know how it would have developed with time, but it still is the dullest ES style guitar I ever checked out in my life.

 

Later the same day I got to know the Weimann Blues Bird, a German made ES style model I never had heard of before. I put it to the test - what a difference! To make it short, I later went with it, and it is my only ES style guitar still. It came with a mahogany through-neck with rosewood fretboard whereas top, sides and back are made of maple. There is a pair of Seymour Duncan P90s, a wraparound tailpiece with six adjustable bridges, and it is finished with a shellac-coloured, natural vintage translucent varnish. The P90s made me think some time because I would have preferred humbuckers, but I left it all original. It is the best ES-style guitar I ever played, would sell used for a fair multiple of its price that time, and its sustain is awesome. Except my Les Paul Traditional 2013 and Alex Lifeson Les Paul Axcess, it blows even with flatwounds every guitar in my arsenal including the weight relieved Les Pauls over the entire fretboard, and despite of that it has the typical percussive bite of the string attack regardless if strung roundwound or flatwound. It is the most distinctive guitar I ever got to know.

 

 

I hear you. I've own a 1984 Dot in Cherry since 1988. Gigged out in clubs with it for about 5 years. Now played in basement and occasional get-togethers. I always was OK with tone, but it did seem more midrangey and less bright than Les Pauls and then some other ES335's I heard. After some research it came down to the wiring. Pots are wrong spec in that era (300K). I recently did a wiring harness replacement myself (tough job!) to bring it back to proper spec (500K pots). It now has more delicate high end and less mids. Very small difference, but I'm getting tone that was not there before. Most noticeable with both PU's engaged.

 

I posted that install here a couple months back.

[soundjunkie]

Well, I'm buying into the hype and ordered a ES-335TDC '63 50'th anni. Memphis. Should arrive in a couple weeks or so and will blather and post pic's then.

[Woollymonster]

I'm frustrated, looking for a new 335, after the big let down with my recent es-390 purch., which has been returned. I've listened to sound clips for days on end comparing various 335 guitars. Either my hearing is toast or there is some gimickry going on at Gibson. My point of view is that these are tools to make music, not historically accurate art pieces to clutter a closet - players really falling for this? Hey, give me some reason to drop 3k more on a 335. I can't hear ANY difference tonally between stock and RI models. Ya, the Cornell has Lollartrons, dif pickups, dif tone, but in a hb equipped 335, Custom, BB or 57's, hide glue, cedar banding, vos finish, hand selected center blocks and other historically accurate acoutremants, I just can't tell ANY tone dif. Am I crazy or just going deaf? I seriously doubt they sound like the originals. If thats the case, then I'll take the std. MEMPHIS 335 please.

I would say, if you cant tell the difference in tone, feel, action, play-ability, looks, etc. between the different offerings, just get the cheapest one that meets your standards. Obviously none can make up the gap between skill, practice, etc.

 

I love my Nashville Custom 1959 ES-335 Historic Dot Reissue. It is unmatched in my opinion. I appreciate it the most directly through a Victoria 3515 with half power switch. Clean and natural overdriven tube sag tones are amazing. So it depends on what you are going to run it through as well. If you are playing trough a massive digital pedal chain and a solid state amp, then anything will do.

 

My 335 Custom does not leave the house much. For that, I use my cheaper crap.

[Pin]

I was struck by it enough that I bought a '60 reissue even though I already had a 345 reissue. (As I understand it, all 345s and 355s have had the block routed under the bridge pickup; the 335s started to have the block partly or completely routed around 1963, but it was inconsistent--Clapton's original '64 had the block intact under the bridge pickup, as can be seen in the video on making the Crossroads 335.)

 

I'm not certain but I'd guess that routing is to enable access to the Varitone choke and to better service the entire wiring system on 345 and 355 guitars.

[capmaster]

I hear you. I've own a 1984 Dot in Cherry since 1988. Gigged out in clubs with it for about 5 years. Now played in basement and occasional get-togethers. I always was OK with tone, but it did seem more midrangey and less bright than Les Pauls and then some other ES335's I heard. After some research it came down to the wiring. Pots are wrong spec in that era (300K). I recently did a wiring harness replacement myself (tough job!) to bring it back to proper spec (500K pots). It now has more delicate high end and less mids. Very small difference, but I'm getting tone that was not there before. Most noticeable with both PU's engaged.

 

I posted that install here a couple months back.

Except those with push/pull volume pots, all Gibsons of mine came with 300 kOhms linear in the volume position. I don't think these are the problem, since 300 k is a good compromise when tweaking down a bit as there is less loss of highs than with 500 k volumes.

 

What made many mid-1970s to mid-1980s Gibsons sound bad were its 100 kOhms tone pots as they cut down severely the pickup/cable resonance. Changing from 100 kOhms to 500 kOhms tone pots will make a huge difference. Perhaps the ES-335 I checked out in 1985 had this problem, too - it is very likely, but I will never know.

 

What tone pot values does your 1984 ES-335 have in it?

 

I'm not certain but I'd guess that routing is to enable access to the Varitone choke and to better service the entire wiring system on 345 and 355 guitars.

Seems very sensible to me, and therefore very probable.

[badbluesplayer]

The ES-335's unique sound comes from the fact that the plywood wings dampen the vibrations from the rest of the guitar in a way that is unpredictable and creates lots of contradictory overtones.

 

So a 335 is about the last guitar you'd worry about when it comes to all these minute tonal differences. The tone comes from plywood. You can hear the plywood. You have to think "plywood" to get the "plywood" tone from it.

 

[capmaster]

... You have to think "plywood" to get the "plywood" tone from it.

 

[soundjunkie]

Well, I answered my own question. Yes, there is a difference. The RI's are lighter, better electronics, including pickups and "feel" more comfortable to play. They are authentic replica's of the great guitars of the past. At least my '63 50'th anni 335 is. Its easy to be cynical, till you own one of these amazing guitars.