mking Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 My guitar playing buddy just bought a 1947 LG-2 from Matt Umanov in NYC and the top is Adirondack spruce. Do any of you own one like this, with that kind of wood on the top? How many of you have ever heard of a late 40's LG-2 with an Adirondack top? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Never saw an LG-2 or any Gibson after 1944 that had a red spruce top until Bozeman started building them with secondary growth wood. The common wisdom is that there was no commercially sawn red spruce available after the War. My 1946 LG-2 has a Sitka spruce top. My friend's 1947 LG-2 has the same. So normally I would be skeptical but I would assume the folks at Umanov know their top wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 I agree with Zomby (always a safe move): it would be a rarity. Any photos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Apparently my ´43 LG-2 apparently has an adi top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mking Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 My 1947 has a Sitka top. I spoke with Zeke at Umanov's today, and he confirmed yes, even though it is a fluke, the one my friend bought most certainly has an adi top. Here is the link so you all can look at it. http://umanovguitars.com/store/item/1947-gibson-lg-2/ By the way, it is as clean in real life as it is in the photos, maybe cleaner. This thing must have been in a museum for the last 66 years. The Geib case that came with it looks the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 I have not seen any even in the 40s, although I think some early 40s probably exist. In general, Gibson moved to Sitka earlier than Martin. The great Sitka forests of the northwest were opened up a fair amount during WWII, and the average size of these trees are quite large. Let's pick, -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-1854Me Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 That certainly is a beaut! Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 As Zomby notes, Gibson used Adiroondack exclusively for tops through mid-1944. I've not before seen Adi Gibson tops after then. But the pics definitely look like Adi. Very cool! And a lovely guitar it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 That certainly is a beaut! Fred It is indeed! Here is a 46 -- quite different looking. Let's pick, -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 I recall hearing that Martin wanted to go to Englemann Spruce after the War but could not find anybody sawing it. I gather though they did get a supply in sometime around 1950. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-1854Me Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 It is indeed! Here is a 46 -- quite different looking. Let's pick, -Tom Yes, that's quite different, Tom. This is my '46; again, looks a bit different: Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 So, can someone educate me on what to look for with Adirondack please? How can we plebs know what it looks like? I had a look around Wiki and stuff, but couldn't find much except pictures of pine cones and needles! The guy that sold my L-0 said this was Adi, but he was the one that was too dim to a. play the cover off it, b. find a bridge pin or 2 that fitted, c. get it fit to play etc, etc....so it could be anything, but sounds great no matter what it is! BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson's Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 I would love a LG. LG are the intitals of the girl I write songs for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 So, can someone educate me on what to look for with Adirondack please? How can we plebs know what it looks like? BluesKing777. Most people think of wide grain when they think of Adirondack, and tight grain when they think of Sitka. Adi sometime also has a warmer color than Sitka, which is typically almost whitish-yellow when sawn. Having said that, every tree has a different growth character, and variations in color and grain are often a function of the way the individual tree is sawn. The bottom line is that there is no definitive way to visually determine the species with absolute certainty. I have two modern Gibsons with tight-grain Adi tops that look almost identical to two vintage Gibsons I have that are almost certainly Sitka tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipm8 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 That certainly is a beaut! Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Here's some good information: A description and close photos of Sitka. A description and photos of red spruce (AKA, Adirondack). As for differences in tone, I think that they are subtle. Or, at least too subtle for my ears. A stiff piece of Sitka can sound more like Adirondack than a soft piece of Adirondack. A few years back I visited my friend and luthier extraordinaire, Kim Walker. He had just completed a batch of a half dozen guitars, three of which were the same model (OM) with Brazilian rosewood back and sides. Each had a different spruce top species: Sitka, Adirondack, European. I did the blind test: Kim handed me each guitar while I kept my eyes closed. I played the guitars and guessed the spruce species. ... I got them all wrong. So much for my claim to expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipm8 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 I'm the lucky friend of KingMe (original poster) that now has the 47' Adi topped LG2, below. The wide grain mentioned in the thread stands out significantly. At first I thought it was serious checking. It is in great shape, and the sustain is incredible. Surprisingly, we believe it may still have some "opening up" at 67 years as it appears to not have been played hardly at all. All original. The entire team at Umanov Guitars in NYC were incredibly professional, informative, and nice. The wrapping job took me 15-20 minutes to get through. I likened it to an Egypologist/Archaeologist uncovering a treasure. Result was similar. Thanks to KingMe for turning me onto this gem. So glad to finally own a Gibson LG2 and looking forward to being part of the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainpicker Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 At the time, I wanted an LG with an Adirondack top that I could afford, but there weren't any. So I grabbed up a little experimental Eastman ET5-SS and now that a couple of years have gone by I find the LG body size with an Adi top to be just about the best all around guitar I own. The headroom of Adi allows for some heavy handedness if I need it but it still handles a lighter touch just fine. And the size is so comfortable. I especially like plugging it in via a single coil soundhole pickup through a little tube amp. I haven't touched my Telecaster since I got it. I'm guessing that this LG-2 with an Adirondack top will be one monster instrument. It's so pretty though it almost seems a shame to really have a go at it with a flatpick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Here's some good information: A description and close photos of Sitka. A description and photos of red spruce (AKA, Adirondack). As for differences in tone, I think that they are subtle. Or, at least too subtle for my ears. A stiff piece of Sitka can sound more like Adirondack than a soft piece of Adirondack. The links JT provided show just how similar in physical properties these two spruces really are. Interestingly, Sitka is shown to be both stiffer and stronger than Adirondack spruce, although Sitka is also slightly heavier. In theory, this suggests you could make a thinner top with Sitka than you could with Adi, or, you could use less top brace mass with a Sitka top for similar physical properties. I think our pro-Adi prejudice stems from its relative scarcity and association with what we view as the golden age of acoustic guitar-making. In practice, I suspect both Gibson and Martin used Adi because of its cost and availability back in the day, before it was practical to do remote logging on the scale that developed during WWII. Sitka was highly desirable as a wood for aircraft construction--particularly gliders--because of its superior mechanical properties and availability in long, wide, clear pieces. The bottom line is that Sitka spruce is a bigger tree with a lot more usable lumber in each tree, provided you have the capability of harvesting these giants. By the way, when I worked building and repairing wooden sailboats, Sitka was the premium wood for spars such as masts for all the reasons given above, particularly the availability of long, straight, clear pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mking Posted December 13, 2013 Author Share Posted December 13, 2013 For what it is worth, two years ago I did a comparison test where I played a new J-45 TV with an adi top at Wildwood Guitars (outside Boulder CO) and then played my 2007 J-45 TV with the Sitka top, the old "A/B" test. I could not hear a significant difference nor could my songwriting buddy that was with me. Was it the top wood, or the specific adi topped TV I was playing? Who knows! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 An interesting fact, which was reported by the very respected luthier John Arnold, is that 30s Martins had adi tops and Sitka braces. Seems like they must have had some reason for that, but I can't guess what it was. Let's pick, -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bram99 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 This is my dream guitar. I have both sitka and mahogany top LG-2s and both modern reissues...but looking to pick up an real vintage banner adi top LG-2 someday ...if anyone out there is looking to part with something just like the one shipm8 got, let me know and I will take it off your hands....Seriously! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Here's some good information: A description and close photos of Sitka. A description and photos of red spruce (AKA, Adirondack). As for differences in tone, I think that they are subtle. Or, at least too subtle for my ears. A stiff piece of Sitka can sound more like Adirondack than a soft piece of Adirondack. A few years back I visited my friend and luthier extraordinaire, Kim Walker. He had just completed a batch of a half dozen guitars, three of which were the same model (OM) with Brazilian rosewood back and sides. Each had a different spruce top species: Sitka, Adirondack, European. I did the blind test: Kim handed me each guitar while I kept my eyes closed. I played the guitars and guessed the spruce species. ... I got them all wrong. So much for my claim to expertise. Thanks for those links, JT. My guitar tech can spot a high cut nut slot from across the other side of his workshop, so I assume someone like KW could spot Sitka vs Adi from 200 paces? BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Thanks for those links, JT. My guitar tech can spot a high cut nut slot from across the other side of his workshop, so I assume someone like KW could spot Sitka vs Adi from 200 paces? BluesKing777. BK, Yeah, once you've seen a bunch of it and had a knowledgeable person tell you which is which, it gets pretty easy in most cases to distinguish Sitka from other spruces. But, I really don't believe anyone can always distinguish Adi from Englemann from European with 100% accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-1854Me Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 I'm the lucky friend of KingMe (original poster) that now has the 47' Adi topped LG2, below. The wide grain mentioned in the thread stands out significantly. At first I thought it was serious checking. It is in great shape, and the sustain is incredible. Surprisingly, we believe it may still have some "opening up" at 67 years as it appears to not have been played hardly at all. All original. The entire team at Umanov Guitars in NYC were incredibly professional, informative, and nice. The wrapping job took me 15-20 minutes to get through. I likened it to an Egypologist/Archaeologist uncovering a treasure. Result was similar. Thanks to KingMe for turning me onto this gem. So glad to finally own a Gibson LG2 and looking forward to being part of the forum. Congratulations on this nice acquisition! Of course, to maintain membership "in good status", you may be required to share that guitar with the group, a month at a time. I'll PM you my "pickup at Fedex" details..... Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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