Inside Llweyn Davis

[cunningham26]

Anyone seen it yet? I saw it a week or so ago and loved it. A bit meandering in terms of plot, but it's a beautiful look into the folk scene before the launch of Bob Dylan. Some solid guitar content as well- right before the scene below, Justin Timberlake greets Llewyn in the studio and says "you play gibson right?" and hands him what seems to be his spare- a banner gibson, while he plays a martin:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSwO-k-RqNA

 

just going to show that Justin Timberlake is the king

 

[RichG]

Anyone seen it yet? I saw it a week or so ago and loved it. A bit meandering in terms of plot, but it's a beautiful look into the folk scene before the launch of Bob Dylan. Some solid guitar content as well- right before the scene below, Justin Timberlake greets Llewyn in the studio and says "you play gibson right?" and hands him what seems to be his spare- a banner gibson, while he plays a martin:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aq4a7g_wdU

 

just going to show that Justin Timberlake is the king

 

I saw it a couple of weeks ago. I did like it. Did you notice something on the strings of that banner Gibson he played in the studio? It looked to me like small cylinders on each string about where the neck joined the body. I wondered if this was some sort of pick up or a way to kill the sound of the guitar in that shot. I asked this question on AGF but no response. So, for you guys who are going to see it, look for this scene and let me know what you think.

 

BTW, I can't see the video posted above.

 

Rich

[cunningham26]

It could have been a pickup or other mic to get a film-quality sound. In interviews Oscar Issac said they performed all of the music sequences live under the supervision of T Bone Burnett. All the singing and playing you see and hear is performed, not mimicked for the shot.

[RichG]

I was able to see the clip this time. I didn't see what I thought I saw on the big screen. Must have been something in the popcorn.

 

Rich

[j45nick]

I was able to see the clip this time. I didn't see what I thought I saw on the big screen. Must have been something in the popcorn.

 

Rich

 

Were you out in Colorado when you watched it the first time, Rich??

[RichG]

Were you out in Colorado when you watched it the first time, Rich??

Could have been, if only in spirit.

[RichG]

Stop the video at 2:09 and look at the strings on the Gibson at the sound hole end of the freet board. That's what I saw in the movie. May just be a shadow.

 

Rich

[j45nick]

Stop the video at 2:09 and look at the strings on the Gibson at the sound hole end of the freet board. That's what I saw in the movie. May just be a shadow.

 

Rich

 

 

I see what you're seeing, but I have no idea what it is.

 

Give me some of that popcorn.......

[tpbiii]

My initial response was 1928 L-1.

 

We liked it ok. I was actually at the Gaslight in 1961 -- came down my freshman year from Boston for Thanksgiving.

 

At that time, I was totally into folk (revival) music -- kind of walked around with my jaw dropping. Later I came back and played some in Washington Square.

 

Since then I have learned a lot about American cultures, so my perspective is quite different. New York City is quite a special place in its long standing ability to mix cultures and make a (somewhat) comfortable mosaic. It is quite usual for individuals from New York to treat other cultures like genres -- kind of pretending to be something they are not culturally -- Delta blues men, hillbillies, etc. The combination can be quite new and interesting, but it is always changed in the process. This is not bad at all, but an associated problem is the actual rural cultures from which the materials strung are often still there and often produce vast hoards of quality musicians directly from the original traditions. But New York and other urban markets mask this, so mostly all that is visible is the urbanized evolution of the music. This is not bad -- we love folk revival music -- but neither is the music that it masks. T-Bone always uses the usual suspects, when there are hoards of quality traditional musicians he could choose. This perpetuates the myth that culturally based traditional music is fading away, rare, and inaccessible -- which certainly is not.

 

End of rant.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[j45nick]

We liked it ok. T-Bone always uses the usual suspects, when there are hoards of quality traditional musicians he could choose. This perpetuates the myth that culturally based traditional music is fading away, rare, and inaccessible -- which certainly is not.

 

End of rant.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

 

Tom, in defense of T-Bone et al, I will say that my interest in "real" traditional music was first piqued by the revivalists, notably people like Joan Baez. It wasn't until I heard her sing some of the Child ballads that I even knew they existed. That opened the door to a greater search for the music kept alive by people like my own ancestors in 18th century Appalachia, probably much like your own ancestors (although as I recall, some of yours were probably Loyalists).

 

Haven't seen the movie yet, but I probably will.

[tpbiii]

Tom, in defense of T-Bone et al, I will say that my interest in "real" traditional music was first piqued by the revivalists, notably people like Joan Baez. It wasn't until I heard her sing some of the Child ballads that I even knew they existed. That opened the door to a greater search for the music kept alive by people like my own ancestors in 18th century Appalachia, probably much like your own ancestors (although as I recall, some of yours were probably Loyalists).

 

Haven't seen the movie yet, but I probably will.

 

Actually, British soldiers. And my wife is descended from Henry Adams, Puritan extraordinaire, progenitor of Presidents. If my children ancestors ever met, there would be a lot of hanging[biggrin].

 

I am not against T-bone -- if you read his history, he was an urban folkie and so was I. Hard to hate yourself.

 

The view he portrays is pretty much exactly the view I held when I came to Atlanta in '71 -- married to a Puritan Yankee wife and trained by a bastion of Puritan education. But I was raised, and worked, with hillbillies -- who I admired greatly. I did really quite well at MIT, but I was not at all outstanding among the blue collar mountain expatriates of my youth.

 

But then we found our way into the mountains -- well, I mean I spoke the language. What I found was so far away from the folk revival legend it was scarey -- music so strong it can steal your soul and so pure it sparkles. Done by people with no scripting who knew almost nothing about music theory, and yet the music they perform is almost unattainable to people who were not born to it.

 

Well I got very excited -- I had found something I thought the world would want to know. But the Scots Irish don't want to be found. I don't mean they want to hide -- they just don't think outside of the local. When the folk revival found a few, they they had found a dying remnant -- actually they pretty much missed them all! The nature of the Scots Irish is they don't care what you think -- not because they agree or disagree with you, but their definition of freedom requires them to mind their own business. So unless you ask ...

 

But whenever I tried to tell what I had found, I discovered a sad but very human property -- when you have been brought up with the legend, you will prefer it to the truth.

 

So I guess I just wish t-bone could find his way into the mountains -- but I think he is too important and he probably doesn't speak the language.

 

But living in the wide world is good too -- if I did not, I would be forced to play our old herringbones and would never have found the AJ and the SJ 910:rolleyes:. So it cuts both ways.

 

Here is "been all around this world" in more like its traditional form:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0QiZoXUL40&noredirect=1

 

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[cunningham26]

Hey Tom,

Without a doubt you're correct- there's a massive difference between being the genuine article and being introduced to it, and I understand the conflict of being a "revivalist" in an urban, puritanical setting like what you experienced.

 

But I think we're living in a world more or less harmonious with both sides of the coin- I have the utmost respect for those that play and know these songs through familial ties, but I also respect the work of people like T Bone Burnett, the folk revivalists, heck even Sara Watkins and Frank Turner for some hypermodern examples, and the huge effort of Smithsonian Folkways and Alan Lomax originally, to bring this music to a new audience over the last 70 or so years. The likes of The Milk Carton Kids, Chris Thile, and Marcus Mumford are doing just that for thousands of young people with their work in this movie and it gives this sampler of a style of music some haven't heard before and turns them on to it. Some will be content to just spin the tracks they like, unfortunately the nature of music today isnt album/genre centric, but if a few follow the dirt road back to the original mountain music you're talking about, does it bring greater value to that scene? Or do you think outside influence muddies the waters?

 

I for one was turned onto this entire scene by bob dylans first album, the witmark demos, and gaslight tapes, and so I'm exactly the type you're talking about, being young and from boston and wanting nothing more than to play these songs with a semblance of meaning, if possible. Exposure, even if it means the songs themselves are watered down a little to create more appeal, has to be a good thing, right?

[blindboygrunt]

Hey Tom,

Without a doubt you're correct- there's a massive difference between being the genuine article and being introduced to it, and I understand the conflict of being a "revivalist" in an urban, puritanical setting like what you experienced.

 

But I think we're living in a world more or less harmonious with both sides of the coin- I have the utmost respect for those that play and know these songs through familial ties, but I also respect the work of people like T Bone Burnett, the folk revivalists, heck even Sara Watkins and Frank Turner for some hypermodern examples, and the huge effort of Smithsonian Folkways and Alan Lomax originally, to bring this music to a new audience over the last 70 or so years. The likes of The Milk Carton Kids, Chris Thile, and Marcus Mumford are doing just that for thousands of young people with their work in this movie and it gives this sampler of a style of music some haven't heard before and turns them on to it. Some will be content to just spin the tracks they like, unfortunately the nature of music today isnt album/genre centric, but if a few follow the dirt road back to the original mountain music you're talking about, does it bring greater value to that scene? Or do you think outside influence muddies the waters?

 

I for one was turned onto this entire scene by bob dylans first album, the witmark demos, and gaslight tapes, and so I'm exactly the type you're talking about, being young and from boston and wanting nothing more than to play these songs with a semblance of meaning, if possible. Exposure, even if it means the songs themselves are watered down a little to create more appeal, has to be a good thing, right?

 

 

I agree with this train of thought. I grew up listening to mainly rock music . if someone had played me man of constant sorrow or Dink's song back then I would've laughed at it. Only after years of tracing the music back through different variations did I get an understanding and appreciation of it.

Now in fact I'll laugh at the music I used to listen to when I was a kid.

[tpbiii]

Hey Tom,

Without a doubt you're correct- there's a massive difference between being the genuine article and being introduced to it, and I understand the conflict of being a "revivalist" in an urban, puritanical setting like what you experienced.

 

But I think we're living in a world more or less harmonious with both sides of the coin- I have the utmost respect for those that play and know these songs through familial ties, but I also respect the work of people like T Bone Burnett, the folk revivalists, heck even Sara Watkins and Frank Turner for some hypermodern examples, and the huge effort of Smithsonian Folkways and Alan Lomax originally, to bring this music to a new audience over the last 70 or so years. The likes of The Milk Carton Kids, Chris Thile, and Marcus Mumford are doing just that for thousands of young people with their work in this movie and it gives this sampler of a style of music some haven't heard before and turns them on to it. Some will be content to just spin the tracks they like, unfortunately the nature of music today isnt album/genre centric, but if a few follow the dirt road back to the original mountain music you're talking about, does it bring greater value to that scene? Or do you think outside influence muddies the waters?

 

I for one was turned onto this entire scene by bob dylans first album, the witmark demos, and gaslight tapes, and so I'm exactly the type you're talking about, being young and from boston and wanting nothing more than to play these songs with a semblance of meaning, if possible. Exposure, even if it means the songs themselves are watered down a little to create more appeal, has to be a good thing, right?

 

I hope nothing I said tended to denigrate folk revival music, and its direct decedents -- we absolute love that genre, and we believe that to be one of our musical homes. I lived in Boston for the entire decade of the 60s -- Club 47, Charles Street, Copley Square, ... -- we may have been in the same place at the same time. The wonderful thing about folk revival music was its accessibly and in the early 60s, it had a huge following. It encouraged the idea that we not only listen to music -- we make it. That at least it has in common with traditional music.

 

But I am academic (a geek), and to me it is important to me to get the facts right. So although I admire the historical work of the various teams at the Smithsonian, hindsight (and subsequent scholarship) shows that it was often quite biased -- thus obscuring rather than revealing truth. Nonetheless, the collections are priceless.

 

If you are interested in such things, I can recommend the book: All That Is Native and Fine: The Politics of Culture in an American Region out of UNC. Also the seminal work of American Cultural History Albion's Seed and the more recent American Nations. I even wrote a related piece for Bluegrass Unlimited myself -- Echoes of Ancient Tones -- British Folkways and the Roots of Bluegrass Music . The reason I worte it was that, as bluegrass has become more and more popular outside of Greater Appalachia, the same cultural mismatchs that plague the folk rival -- traditional vs fusion -- show up in bluegrass. I worte the article above in a attempt to introduce the two cultures to each other in a musical context. A good early work on the folk revival is When We Were Good.

 

The scholastic work started pretty cleanly, and it was done in several cultural contexts -- John(?) Seeger from Harvard, John Lomax from UT, and Bascom Lamar Lunsford from Appalachia. In the historical tradition of Harvard, Seeger and his wife went into the mountains to introduce to population to the wonders of classical music -- they came back having discovered a music of equal power, vitality and beauty. The other great collector as AP Carter, who walked the mountains with his one legged black partner Leslie Riddle finding traditional materials. It was their children -- Pete (and Mike) Seeger and Alan Lomax -- who introduced their political bias into the mix. Their goals were arguably good -- they just had no place in traditional music scholarship.

 

Do you still live in Boston? Do you ever go to the Can Tab? We play at the jam when we are in town.

 

Gotta go,

 

Best,

 

-Tom

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I think music is supposed to evolve and change. I think it is at its best when it is melting styles together, creating new forms,subtlety re-inventing itself; I think it is much less when it becomes a history lesson. As a result, I tend not to care for revisionist music, but see it as a necessesary step toward new forms. The greatest result of the folk revival was Dylan. His emergence was reason enough for the entire movement, But he very quickly pushed beyond it, rejected it completely. He came out of it but was never really of it. Dylan is no musicologist straining for "authenticity." He is the real thing; authentic by nature, not by design. I'll make a more modern comparison that I know many will disagree with, from that evasive genre, Americana: With all of their massive talent, Gillian welch and David Rawlings are essentially revivalists. The Civil Wars are creators, melding, blending, inventing themselves as they go. YMMV, but if I had to choose (and I'm glad I don't), I'd take The Civil Wars without hesitation.

 

But then again, I like a great novel better than the very best history books.

 

P

[cunningham26]

Hey tom,

I only missed you by about 45 years- I'm 29 and live in Boston currently. There's a good scene coming together, and the cantab and club passim are still the folk go-tos, with a few others doing their thing. There's an Americana festival every year that have shows in 3-4 different venues over one weekend and is getting bigger each year. Would love to see you there sometime!

 

You ever run into Rick Von Schmidt in your time here? Dylan's version of baby let me follow you down was one of the first i learned off that album

[tpbiii]

I only missed you by about 45 years- I'm 29 and live in Boston currently. There's a good scene coming together, and the cantab and club passim are still the folk go-tos, with a few others doing their thing. There's an Americana festival every year that have shows in 3-4 different venues over one weekend and is getting bigger each year. Would love to see you there sometime!

 

Well, only 40[rolleyes].

 

Sounds like a cool event -- when is it?

 

We were going to go to the Joe Val festival this year, but we could not get a room in the hotel. That's entirely indoors and in February -- without a room, we would freeze.

You ever run into Rick Von Schmidt in your time here?

 

We ran into a guy called Eric von Schmidt -- could that be the same guy?

 

All the best,

 

-Tom

[j45nick]

Dylan's version of baby let me follow you down was one of the first i learned off that album

 

Same here. That proved to be a very useful song, and I wrote a number of my own verses to it.

[RichG]

I was a Club 47 guy in the sixties in Boston. I am a member and contributor to Passim, even though I'm not local. We do get up there sometimes. We saw the Jim Kweskin show at Passim in August. It was great.

 

"Baby Let Me Follow You Down" is a great book by Eric Von Schmidt and Jim Rooney which chronicles the Cambridge scene fom the late fifties through the mid sixties. I'm sure the guys in this discussion know of it, but for the benefit of the younger generation, I mention it. :-)

 

Rich

[cunningham26]

It's usually in the fall- Sept or October, since they set up stages outside in Union and Harvard Squares. http://newenglandamericana.com/

 

Thanks for the tip on the book! I'm a big fan of this scene as well as general boston history, so i'll have to give it a read through.

[j45nick]

I was a Club 47 guy in the sixties in Boston.

Rich

 

 

Club 47 was the folk revival Temple when I was a college in Providence in the mid-60's. ]

 

Tom Barnwell would have been at MIT then, I believe.

 

A few years later, when I worked with a folk/rock band in NYC, I was still in awe of places like the Bitter End and Gerde's folk City in the Village. Then when we played there (I did sound back then), I realized they were just cramped places with miserable acoustics to overcome. But Kate McGarrigle opened for us on a couple of nights, and the Mayor of MacDougal Street came into the bar almost every night, where I would have to buy him a beer before he would talk to me.

 

You sort of had to be there to appreciate it, but I know where RichG is coming from.....

[blindboygrunt]

Same here. That proved to be a very useful song, and I wrote a number of my own verses to it.

 

I , for one , would like to hear these verses :)

[RichG]

My final piece of Boston trivia. When I arrived at Northeastern University and checked into the West Dorm on Forsythe Street, across the hall on the second floor was Jay Geils. We also shared the same section and schedule as we were both in the Engineering school and both last names began with "G". Up on the third floor was a kid who spent more time than even us fooling with guitars and hanging out. He is Matt Umanov.

 

It didn't take long for Jay to get into the folk scene and then the electric blues. He dropped out of NU and hung around the 47 helping the blues guys load their gear. Jim Rooney would let him and Danny and Magic **** in for free.

 

Matt dropped out even more quickly to persue his real love of restoring guitars. I still see Jay often, in fact we went to that Passim show together along with another buddy from those days at NU. I have not seen Matt in years, mostly because his instruments are too rich for my blood!

 

Rich

 

Ps: Apparently one cannot use the nickname for Richard on this site, but Magic Richard sounds lame. You get the picture.

[gov]

Great stories all

 

Enjoyable read

[tpbiii]

My final piece of Boston trivia. When I arrived at Northeastern University and checked into the West Dorm on Forsythe Street, across the hall on the second floor was Jay Geils. We also shared the same section and schedule as we were both in the Engineering school and both last names began with "G". Up on the third floor was a kid who spent more time than even us fooling with guitars and hanging out. He is Matt Umanov.

 

It didn't take long for Jay to get into the folk scene and then the electric blues. He dropped out of NU and hung around the 47 helping the blues guys load their gear. Jim Rooney would let him and Danny and Magic **** in for free.

 

Matt dropped out even more quickly to persue his real love of restoring guitars. I still see Jay often, in fact we went to that Passim show together along with another buddy from those days at NU. I have not seen Matt in years, mostly because his instruments are too rich for my blood!

 

Rich

 

Ps: Apparently one cannot use the nickname for Richard on this site, but Magic Richard sounds lame. You get the picture.

 

 

When were you there? I lived at Beacon and Mass Av 1961-65 and then in Central SQ until I left in 70s. If you were a NU, we were pretty close.

 

The those days, the Red Sox were not so good. So, after the 7th inning, they would open up the gates and let anyone in. We would study with the radio on, and then walk down to Fenway for free Major League Baseball.

 

By the time I started to go to Club 47, it had left MT. Auburn Street and moved to Harvard Sq. Folk music could be really big then -- Ian and Sylvia filled Symphony Hall. I use to love all the little folk joints on Charles Street and the foot of Beacon Hill -- 10 cent beer and there were young people everywhere!

 

I guess my best story is about Boston Bluegrass in the 60s. In the early 60s, a guy named Ben Logan came to MIT to get an advanced degree in math. Well he was also known as Tex Logan, who had played fiddle with Bill Monroe. At that time there were a lot of southern boys working at the Boston Naval Shipyards, and Ben/Tex saw an opportunity. He got some fiends -- the Lilly Brothers -- to come up from WV and play bluegrass in the combat zone. It was a blue collar bar for sure -- chicken wire so you could not hit the band members with beer bottles. When Tex left to wok at Bell Labs in NJ, the Lilly Brothers stayed on for many years -- it was the well spring of Boston bluegrass. Steve Watt, who hosts the Tuesday jam at the CanTab in Central square, started out playing with the Lilly Brothers in the late 60s.

 

I got to see the Lilly brothers mostly because my family was from western NC. A Wellesley student from Asheville got me to take her there. It was a scarey place.

 

Later, when I visited Bell Labs for six months in the early 80s, I met Ben Logan. He worked with the same group I did -- Acoustics Research. As it turns out, Ben researched some functions which later were used in the foundations of DSP -- a lot of which came out of that group. But here is the rest of the story -- every year, Bill Monroe would come to NJ for Tex Logan's birthday party AND the whole research group was invited. High quality hillbilly musicians and high quality mathematicians usually don't mix -- but here they did. You could not make this stuff up.

 

The final piece to this story happened at Georgia Tech. We used to run a weekly jam session and then go to the Freight Room to play. Well one day a young student name Tony Watt showed up to play. He knew some chords, but he was not really very good. Well for maybe three years, we hauled him all over mountains and he sort of caught fire. Well now he is a big player in the Boston Bluegrass scene -- BBU and a much rewarded guitar player -- and our dear friend. His father is the same Steve Watt who played at the Hillbilly Ranch with the Lilly Brothers. The Can Tab is pretty much a blue collar bar too -- I guess it is a Boston tradition.

 

Two years go, the whole Watt family came visit and put on a show with us and my daughter's band -- Dead Girl Songs -- in the tiny Nova Scotia town of Lockeport.

 

Like I said, you couldn't make this stuff up[biggrin].

 

Best,

 

-Tom