Amplification question

[RXXX20]

I have a general question for those of you have done some solo-acoustic performing...I know this probably falls into the realm of personal preference, but here goes:

 

I play a an '06 J-45. I have a Fender Acoustasonic 30 amp I bought mainly to play in a band situation. I am very pleased with the guitar and amp, but I was wondering how any of you who perform solo provide amplification...I am talking small venue here...like a bar where you need to be heard above crowd noise.

 

I used to run the J-45 directly into a PA mixer in a bar. The PA had some good components....the output was pretty good but it was not my PA so I could not experiment fully. I also tried running the line-out from the Acoustasonic amp into the PA mixer. This would make the amp DSP effects available via the PA (although I seldom used them). Plus, I figured I was getting some added tonal benefit by doing this, as well...sort of like using the amp as a preamp.

 

I am planning on getting a small PA at some point. I guess I am wondering what some of you prefer when using the Gibson acoustics that do not have tone controls on the guitar. Mic or pickup? Do you use an external preamp? Acoustic amp? PA? Combination?

[QuestionMark]

I prefer to run my pickup through the sound system PA rather than use a Mic. I can move around, plus better control the sound. My preference, however, when doing this is to bring my own sound system PA unless I know that the venue has a decent one and decent sound person. Using my own sound system PA enables me to always know how my sound will sound...it is my art after all. Regarding, amping first and then plugging the amp into the soundboard...I do this, but only when I'm playing my 1965 Gibson 125TC with its P90 pickup. I plug my 125TC into my acoustic amp and then plug my acoustic amp into the PA sound board. While plugging that guitar directly into the standalone PA works, plugging it into the acoustic amp first gives it the much much richer sound I associate with an old P90 with no effects used. Interesting, when I plug my acoustics with a fishman soundhole pickup into the sound PA board, the tones are pretty similar to the 125's P90 through my old tube amp (which I no longer bring out)...which in turn is very similar to plugging the 125's P90 into the acoustic amp with or without the sound PA system. All this keeps in mind that any kind of mic'ing or acoustic guitar pickup changes the true acoustic sound anyhow.

 

QM

[Acousticat]

Ditto With QM

[RXXX20]

That is actually very helpful. I know these type of setup questions involve a great deal of trial and error...I just don't want the trial and error part to come with too many unnecessary purchases.

 

Any opinions on the following?:

 

Monster Acoustic cables...I always resisted these due to their obnoxious cost, but I recently got one at a substantial discount. I can't really say unequivocally that it sounds any better than the standard Monster cable, but it certainly feels heavy and well-manufactured. Sort of like a placebo effect...

 

Preamps or acoustic guitar processors....I tried a Fishman external preamp that runs about $120, I think. I did not buy it since I did not think it really added anything to the Gibson Hummingbird I was playing into it at at the store. I also bought an LR Baggs belt-clip preamp for about $50 that I used once or twice to provide tone controls for the Gibson acoustic...I can't say it improved the sound any and if anything, the extra cables were awkward and in the way.

[58 Relic]

Good Morning

Good question and I am faced with the same issue . I have a new J45 that I use alongside a Taylor with tone controls on the guitar . I have two amps an AER compact and a Marshall AS50D .I find that the J45 works better through the Marshall , better string balance than the AER . When I gig I also use a Zoom effects system for a little delay . I then if needed use the DI from the Marshall to the house PA and use the amp as a monitor . Personally

I don't miss the tone control on the Gibson as use the guitars volume control as a tone control to set the feel and attack then use the master on the amp , half way on the guitars volume works fine for me .

[blindboygrunt]

7 years ago.

[EuroAussie]

In small bars I use a Marhsal AS100D which has two guitar and two mike inputs for my duo. Usually that is enough and we place the amp behind us. If the pub has also a mixer and a couple house speakers we then use the Marshall more as a monitor and run through the house PA.

 

For bigger venues we use a Yamaha Stagepass PA.

 

Here's a couple examples: smaller pub, the Marshall as its sitting behind us, no house speakers.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUCzrIhqQw0

 

 

 

Larger venue with the Yamaha PA

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cpR6chWANg

[duluthdan]

Heey EA, tell you what - that Hummingbird in the 2nd video sounds terrific.

[EuroAussie]

Heey EA, tell you what - that Hummingbird in the 2nd video sounds terrific.

 

Cheers Dan. Firstly the HB TV sounds great plugged in to start off with, but also the Yamaha PA offers more head room and overall richer tone.

[MissouriPicker]

Yes on the Yamaha Stage Pas. Awesome and very portable system........... I use my Yamaha for bigger buildings and outside gigs. For coffeehouses and libraries, etc. I use a Roland Street Cube. Roland equipment is typically high quality and big bang for the bucks. Real clear and projecting sound. Also, runs on batteries if you have a power problem. I just set-up my mic stand and plug the guitar and mic in and I'm ready to go. Very fast setup and tear down.

[Jesse_Dylan]

I strongly prefer a mic, ANY mic, any time I can get away with it, which I usually can.

 

I have never heard a pickup that actually sounds like a guitar. I know this is sort of a rude opinion to hold (and I apologize), but as good as a plugged-in guitar can sound, in my opinion it only ever sounds like the pickup. It does not sound like the guitar. My feeling is, why buy a nice guitar just to hear a pickup? Might as well get a cheap Mexican Martin.

 

The L.R. Baggs Lyric is an exception (I have found even the Anthem to sound very much like a pickup).

 

On the other hand, will listeners care? Definitely not. And I'm sure other people would listen to my microphone and sloppy mic placement and say, "ugh that sounds awful--why doesn't he just get a pickup??"

 

I am thinking of getting an L.R. Baggs Lyric and hoping I will be as impressed with it as many sound samples seem to impress me. However, whenever I have to use a pickup, and even when using a Lyric I'm sure, I use a mic as well, as much mic as I can get away with.

 

Just my weird, biased opinions though. Pickups are a pet peeve of mine for some reason, and I can't understand why people think they sound like their guitar :P

[EuroAussie]

I think a lot depends on what one is looking for. Agree with you 99% of the audience could not care less, but its about the player, isnt it ?

 

At the end of the day practicality plays a role, and having a mike infront of you is frankly a pain in the butt, especially when you like to move with the guitar, like I do.

 

Also, I actally enjoy the tone of the pickup persoally, we play a lot of rocky material and I like that when I dig in I almost can get a tinge of distortion coming from the guitar to give me that gritty Gibson tone.

 

I have a feeling you're a bit of a perfectionsist and you know what Winston Churchill said about that ... Perfectionism = Paralysis.

 

This is going through a pickup but i can tell you what Im hearing is 90% how this SJ sounds unplugged.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS6Zpy3SC8E

 

 

I strongly prefer a mic, ANY mic, any time I can get away with it, which I usually can.

 

I have never heard a pickup that actually sounds like a guitar. I know this is sort of a rude opinion to hold (and I apologize), but as good as a plugged-in guitar can sound, in my opinion it only ever sounds like the pickup. It does not sound like the guitar. My feeling is, why buy a nice guitar just to hear a pickup? Might as well get a cheap Mexican Martin.

 

The L.R. Baggs Lyric is an exception (I have found even the Anthem to sound very much like a pickup).

 

On the other hand, will listeners care? Definitely not. And I'm sure other people would listen to my microphone and sloppy mic placement and say, "ugh that sounds awful--why doesn't he just get a pickup??"

 

I am thinking of getting an L.R. Baggs Lyric and hoping I will be as impressed with it as many sound samples seem to impress me. However, whenever I have to use a pickup, and even when using a Lyric I'm sure, I use a mic as well, as much mic as I can get away with.

 

Just my weird, biased opinions though. Pickups are a pet peeve of mine for some reason, and I can't understand why people think they sound like their guitar :P

[Jesse_Dylan]

I think a lot depends on what one is looking for. Agree with you 99% of the audience could not care less, but its about the player, isnt it ?

 

At the end of the day practicality plays a role, and having a mike infront of you is frankly a pain in the butt, especially when you like to move with the guitar, like I do.

 

Also, I actally enjoy the tone of the pickup persoally, we play a lot of rocky material and I like that when I dig in I almost can get a tinge of distortion coming from the guitar to give me that gritty Gibson tone.

 

I have a feeling you're a bit of a perfectionsist and you know what Winston Churchill said about that ... Perfectionism = Paralysis.

 

This is going through a pickup but i can tell you what Im hearing is 90% how this SJ sounds unplugged.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS6Zpy3SC8E

 

Sounds very nice! That is definitely not the typical pickup sound, though. A good sound system can add some air and fool one into thinking they are hearing a guitar instead of a pickup. But a pickup is typically just something that senses vibrations under the saddle. There's really no way it "can" sound like the guitar it's in. I'd think that would sound just as good, and sound like that, with the pickup in another guitar and the same amp or sound system or settings or whatever else. If you take that same guitar and pickup in the video and plug it directly into a mixing board and listen with headphones instead of a sound system, I doubt you would think it sounded much like a Southern Jumbo anymore. But I doubt anyone will disagree that pickups typically sound horrendous recorded directly.

[EuroAussie]

Strongly disagree with you Jess. I use the same pickup on all my guitars and they all sound like the guitar being played. There is a massive difference between the SJ and Hummingbird tone when I play them out live, because they sounds like an SJ and Hummingbird.

 

And agree with you, a good sound system makes a big difference and also volume levels. Going through a PA I find gives the tone more breathing room and better overall tone, as long as its not too loud. The previous video went through the house PA, just a normal Yamaha system and volume was low, which was the ideal combo.

 

But take a listen to this vid, also going through the house PA and tell me it doesnt sound like a Hummingbird. It has all those warm, nectar tones coming through, especially on the bass strings just like it would be unplugged.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-o-cBftXLQ

 

 

 

Sounds very nice! That is definitely not the typical pickup sound, though. A good sound system can add some air and fool one into thinking they are hearing a guitar instead of a pickup. But a pickup is typically just something that senses vibrations under the saddle. There's really no way it "can" sound like the guitar it's in. I'd think that would sound just as good, and sound like that, with the pickup in another guitar and the same amp or sound system or settings or whatever else. If you take that same guitar and pickup in the video and plug it directly into a mixing board and listen with headphones instead of a sound system, I doubt you would think it sounded much like a Southern Jumbo anymore. But I doubt anyone will disagree that pickups typically sound horrendous recorded directly.

[Jesse_Dylan]

Strongly disagree with you Jess. I use the same pickup on all my guitars and they all sound like the guitar being played. There is a massive difference between the SJ and Hummingbird tone when I play them out live, because they sounds like an SJ and Hummingbird.

 

And agree with you, a good sound system makes a big difference and also volume levels. Going through a PA I find gives the tone more breathing room and better overall tone, as long as its not too loud. The previous video went through the house PA, just a normal Yamaha system and volume was low, which was the ideal combo.

 

But take a listen to this vid, also going through the house PA and tell me it doesnt sound like a Hummingbird. It has all those warm, nectar tones coming through, especially on the bass strings just like it would be unplugged.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-o-cBftXLQ

 

That sounds pretty darn good too, but I am hearing a lot more piezo this time for whatever reason. What pickup are you using? I've read that the L.R. Baggs Element (which many Gibsons ship with) "senses" top vibrations instead of just the saddle pressure. I don't know if that's true or just marketing. I have an L.R. Baggs Element in a couple guitars and have gotten sounds varying from horrendous to quite nice from it, but I would not say it ever sounds like an unplugged guitar.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnyocjY5wqA

This would be a fantastic review of these guitars, but they are running them simultaneously with pickups and a mic. There is a segment where he compares the pickup to the mic, but for the most part, it is mic/pickup combined, and all I can hear is the piezo ick. And when he compares the mic to the pickup, there is a stark difference. (L.R. Baggs Element)

 

Hmm, not sure why the video isn't popping up. Thought I did it the same way you did...

[EuroAussie]

Youre probably hearing the pieze quack from the other guitar, which is brighter and has a bit of quack.

 

I use a speciic set up in that I use a Fishman Matrix Infinity UST, BUT i combine it with a Fishman Aura Spectrum DI unit, which amongst other things takes around 90% of the piezo quack away. This is the trick. I strongly dislike Baggs products, I find they sound quite 'phasey and electric' especially the M1A which I had that I thought sounded just awful, totally unatural.

 

I think the general consensus is that the Trance Amulet is the most natural pickup around, but its pricey. Im very satsified with the infinity / Aura DI combo, doesnt let me down.

 

 

That sounds pretty darn good too, but I am hearing a lot more piezo this time for whatever reason. What pickup are you using? I've read that the L.R. Baggs Element (which many Gibsons ship with) "senses" top vibrations instead of just the saddle pressure. I don't know if that's true or just marketing. I have an L.R. Baggs Element in a couple guitars and have gotten sounds varying from horrendous to quite nice from it, but I would not say it ever sounds like an unplugged guitar.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnyocjY5wqA

This would be a fantastic review of these guitars, but they are running them simultaneously with pickups and a mic. There is a segment where he compares the pickup to the mic, but for the most part, it is mic/pickup combined, and all I can hear is the piezo ick. And when he compares the mic to the pickup, there is a stark difference. (L.R. Baggs Element)

 

Hmm, not sure why the video isn't popping up. Thought I did it the same way you did...

[Jesse_Dylan]

Youre probably hearing the pieze quack from the other guitar, which is brighter and has a bit of quack.

 

I use a speciic set up in that I use a Fishman Matrix Infinity UST, BUT i combine it with a Fishman Aura Spectrum DI unit, which amongst other things takes around 90% of the piezo quack away. This is the trick. I strongly dislike Baggs products, I find they sound quite 'phasey and electric' especially the M1A which I had that I thought sounded just awful, totally unatural.

 

I think the general consensus is that the Trance Amulet is the most natural pickup around, but its pricey. Im very satsified with the infinity / Aura DI combo, doesnt let me down.

 

Yep, I'm not above trickery. I think the best advances we've had in recent years have been the Aura and the Anthem/Lyric, and I hope both continue to get improved.

 

For what it's worth, both guitars sound terrible to me in the review video except when the pickups are turned off--then they both sound fantastic. I really hear nothing of their actual acoustic sound in the pickup portions at all. Even when the mic is online, the pickup drowns it out.

[EuroAussie]

The plugged in tone on those examples is dreadful, agree with you, the worst of UST with that horrible quack. But thats why the Aura is a must have if you choose to run a UST, its an indispensable investment in my book.

 

 

Yep, I'm not above trickery. I think the best advances we've had in recent years have been the Aura and the Anthem/Lyric, and I hope both continue to get improved.

 

For what it's worth, both guitars sound terrible to me in the review video except when the pickups are turned off--then they both sound fantastic. I really hear nothing of their actual acoustic sound in the pickup portions at all. Even when the mic is online, the pickup drowns it out.

[Jesse_Dylan]

The plugged in tone on those examples is dreadful, agree with you, the worst of UST with that horrible quack. But thats why the Aura is a must have if you choose to run a UST, its an indispensable investment in my book.

 

I had considered it before myself. I guess I am turn between Fishman UST and Aura, or L.R. Baggs Lyric with Para DI (or just by itself).

 

So, like you said, paralysis! I end up just bringing along my SM58, pointing it at the 12th fret, or even at the soundhole (eek!), and I'm good to go. I have even done this in band situations, although they all frowned at me like I was flatulating or doing something else uncouth.

 

Other times I have just used my CA which has the L.R. Baggs Stage Pro and used a mic and the pickup together. The Stage Pro itself, plus a sound system, diminish the piezo a bit, and then I turn it down as low as I can and the mic up as high as I can.

 

It is less noticeable when drums, bass and electric guitar are thrumming away, and again, no one cares but me... especially when I'm playing a green "plastic" guitar.

[EuroAussie]

I had considered it before myself. I guess I am turn between Fishman UST and Aura, or L.R. Baggs Lyric with Para DI (or just by itself).

 

So, like you said, paralysis! I end up just bringing along my SM58, pointing it at the 12th fret, or even at the soundhole (eek!), and I'm good to go. I have even done this in band situations, although they all frowned at me like I was flatulating or doing something else uncouth.

 

Other times I have just used my CA which has the L.R. Baggs Stage Pro and used a mic and the pickup together. The Stage Pro itself, plus a sound system, diminish the piezo a bit, and then I turn it down as low as I can and the mic up as high as I can.

 

It is less noticeable when drums, bass and electric guitar are thrumming away, and again, no one cares but me... especially when I'm playing a green "plastic" guitar.

 

Well, this is the call you need to make. Anyway, youve heard now two examples of how my HB TV sounds with the Infnity / Aura combo, so hopefully it will help you a bit with the decision making process. Good luck with it.

[Jesse_Dylan]

I heard a pretty good demo of the Lyric in a 1960s Hummingbird as well.

 

I actually think your SJ demo might sound better on average than the Lyric.

 

I think what I might do is wait, and when I buy a J-15 or J-45 (leaning J-15), I'll have them take out the Element, put on a bone nut/saddle, and put in a Lyric which I'll mail to them. Then if I somehow don't like the Lyric, I could always remove and return it and put in a Fishman UST and get an Aura. And if I do like it, I could get a Lyric put in my Hummingbird too locally (eek!)

 

Decent Lyric demo (man he beats the heck out of that very bright-sounding J-35--sounds nearly the same plugged in as unplugged tho)

 

Installation/demo with 1960s Hummingbird (can't take a UST because of the adjustable saddles/bridges they used back then)

 

 

Gibson uses a Lyric in the J-45 Progressive as well, although I think that's because of the bizarre robot tuning bridge, and in the Donovan J-45, again, because of the adjustable bridge

 

 

Sorry for kind of hijacking the thread, but we were basically on-topic! :)

[EuroAussie]

Yeah, it sounds good in these demos, especially on the J-35. Gives the tone quite a bit of grunt which I like but to me still sounds highly acoustic. On the Bird I thought some of the nectar honey was lost when he turned on the pickup, still sounded good but more like a Gibson slope.

 

Lot of great options, thats the bottom line.

 

 

I heard a pretty good demo of the Lyric in a 1960s Hummingbird as well.

 

I actually think your SJ demo might sound better on average than the Lyric.

 

I think what I might do is wait, and when I buy a J-15 or J-45 (leaning J-15), I'll have them take out the Element, put on a bone nut/saddle, and put in a Lyric which I'll mail to them. Then if I somehow don't like the Lyric, I could always remove and return it and put in a Fishman UST and get an Aura. And if I do like it, I could get a Lyric put in my Hummingbird too locally (eek!)

 

Decent Lyric demo (man he beats the heck out of that very bright-sounding J-35--sounds nearly the same plugged in as unplugged tho)

 

Installation/demo with 1960s Hummingbird (can't take a UST because of the adjustable saddles/bridges they used back then)

 

 

Gibson uses a Lyric in the J-45 Progressive as well, although I think that's because of the bizarre robot tuning bridge, and in the Donovan J-45, again, because of the adjustable bridge

 

 

Sorry for kind of hijacking the thread, but we were basically on-topic! :)

[Jesse_Dylan]

Yeah, it sounds good in these demos, especially on the J-35. Gives the tone quite a bit of grunt which I like but to me still sounds highly acoustic. On the Bird I thought some of the nectar honey was lost when he turned on the pickup, still sounded good but more like a Gibson slope.

 

Lot of great options, thats the bottom line.

 

Agreed on the Hummingbird. I have to wonder too if it might be something to do with the amp, or even the vintage of the instrument. As long as I can get a natural sound, though, I'm okay with the method (even if it makes a Hummingbird sounds a bit like a slope).

 

Wonder if they did some EQ or something to the 'Bird. To me, a Bird has more of an enveloping sound, while a slope has more growl and punch. (Oh jeez, now I'm turning the thread down the slippery slope of square vs slope!)

[duluthdan]

Agreed on the Hummingbird. I have to wonder too if it might be something to do with the amp, or even the vintage of the instrument. As long as I can get a natural sound, though, I'm okay with the method (even if it makes a Hummingbird sounds a bit like a slope).

 

Wonder if they did some EQ or something to the 'Bird. To me, a Bird has more of an enveloping sound, while a slope has more growl and punch. (Oh jeez, now I'm turning the thread down the slippery slope of square vs slope!)

Hey - to be a realistic demo, you need to listen to a hack. Like Me ! Here's my Lyric.

[EuroAussie]

I think it sounds really good also Dan. Very, very natural tone. If you didnt tell me it was going through an amp I would have thought its straight from the guitar. Does the tone stay consisent once you turn the volume up, and are there there feedback issues with higher volume ?

 

How does it rate to the Trance Amulat Dan ?

 

So many good choice these days to get a great plugged in tone.

 

Hey - to be a realistic demo, you need to listen to a hack. Like Me ! Here's my Lyric.