J45 - '68 or 69? Value Range?

[latestart]

New to the Gibson world so a bit of help appreciated. I have come across a J45 that is very interesting. After reading around the web, I have the following information:

 

Argument for being 1969:

> Square shoulder

> Belly "down" bridge

Argument for being a 1968:

> Serial number is marked as early 1968 - 9101XX

> "Made in America" is missing from the headstock

 

Other miscellaneous

> No label inside sound hole, no other markings I can find inside the guitar, but I may need help knowing where to look.

> "Inlaid" modern Gibson headstock

> "j-45" inscribed on TRC

> Tear-drop pick guard

> Tuners look original and work well-enough.

> I think it is long-scale, but I am not exactly sure how to measure that.

> Adjustable bridge replaced with a BIG bone saddle rather than wood fill and small saddle - anything wrong with that approach?

> Old case is trashed and probably not original

 

Looks exactly like this guitar Reverb Gibson J45 - except for Cherry burst versus whatever this one has. Reverb guitar serial number is 9088XX as near as I can tell. This guitar is labelled a 1969.

 

Guitar plays great. Compared to the Martins (016NY), Guilds (D35, D50, Orpheum), Taylors (410CE) I have played is it VERY loud and clear with a distinct voice. Overall condition is very good - a few small nicks here and there, only one that is through the finish as seen in the picture. No cracks that I have found, need to check more closely and check for loose braces. Neck set seem great with lots of saddle left for future adjustment. Based on sound alone, I am pretty interested. Neck is a bit thin, but not terrible. Based on some web site I saw, it looks like 3000+/- of these were made; it doesn't seem like a *rare* guitar.

 

Here are my questions:

 

1) Any way to confirm which year it is or is this just part of the loose record-keeping at Gibson?

2) Compared to early in the 1960's there are changes to the bracing in 1968 or 1969 that made the guitar less desirable. Since I have a sample size of one, would I be better off pursuing a earlier example?

3) Looks like the price range is $1500-$2500 for these guitars. I also see earlier guitars overlapping the higher end of the range, so a mid-60's could be available in the same price range?

4) What is the burst color called. Presume it is tobacco? Not cherry for sure.

5) Is the bridge original. I originally thought no, but after looking at lots of J45's on the web, it looks like maybe yes.

6) Is there a online site to show the differences in bracing between 1968-69 if there is a change?

 

I am not very concerned about collectibility, but I do want to try to be able to sell in a few years if necessary near the price where I bought presuming I maintain/improve the condition of the guitar.

 

Thoughts???

 

IMG_4168 by JW, on Flickr

[aliasphobias]

I can possibly address some of your questions;

It looks tobacco sunburst, definitely not cherry (from here).

A look at the back of the headstock would be helpful to narrow the year. Is there a volute on the headstock?

In 68' the top bracing got much heavier and continued so on into the '70s and evolved into the much opposed double x bracing.

From what I have seen these can be found around the $1200 price point.

I cannot ascertain whether the guitar is local to you, in which case, some of your questions could be answered by looking inside with a mirror.

They are not the most desirable years (late '68 -'69), not that there are not some good ones. 1969 seems accurate to me without further info. As to holding value they seem to if bought "right". That said I would not pay anywhere close to the $2500 number you mention, and personally try to chisel off some of the $1500. There are some very nice late model J45's that could be had for around $1500 that should have less playability issues.

Cheers and welcome!

[j45nick]

In this case, the year of manufacture is pretty irrelevant. Whether this guitar was made in 1968, '69,'70, or 1971, it's the physical characteristics of the guitar that drive the value, rather than the year of manufacture.

 

We generally think of 1969 as being the year of introduction of the square-dread J-45, but that doesn't mean that some were not built in 1968. It also doesn't mean that the serial numbers started at 900001 on January 1 of 1968, either, so don't read too much into the timeline of the guitar on the basis of where it might seem to fit in that year's nominal serial number sequence.

 

Even the best serial number daters struggle with Gibsons in the late 1960's and early 1970's, so we often date guitars by their features, rather than their serial numbers.

 

The J-45 in this period does not have a particularly good reputation, but there are obviously good ones out there. At this time, however, their price is driven by the general reputation of their siblings, which is not that good.

 

Few would be so presumptuous as to predict future values of guitars. We've all been surprised that guitars we have dismissed as second-tier have become expensive, desirable collectibles.

 

I would call this an "early square-shoulder J-45", rather than try to pin down the year precisely. The physical characteristics of this one seem to say between 1969-1971.

 

Current value? probably less than $2000, depending on condition.

 

Future value? Who knows, but don't buy this one with any expectation of increase.

 

One problem is that in this price/value range, you can buy a near-new Bozeman-built traditional J-45, or if you want a square dread, a near-new Hummingbird. Either of those options is likely to be a better musical instrument than its Norlin-era predecessor.

 

If you want a vintage J-45 in this price range, you can often buy 1965-1968 round-should J-45's for the same money. Since a guitar that is narrow at the nut doesn't bother you, that's where I might look as an introduction to vintage Gibson large-body guitars on a budget.

[latestart]

I can possibly address some of your questions;

It looks tobacco sunburst, definitely not cherry (from here).

A look at the back of the headstock would be helpful to narrow the year. Is there a volute on the headstock?

In 68' the top bracing got much heavier and continued so on into the '70s and evolved into the much opposed double x bracing.

From what I have seen these can be found around the $1200 price point.

I cannot ascertain whether the guitar is local to you, in which case, some of your questions could be answered by looking inside with a mirror.

They are not the most desirable years (late '68 -'69), not that there are not some good ones. 1969 seems accurate to me without further info. As to holding value they seem to if bought "right". That said I would not pay anywhere close to the $2500 number you mention, and personally try to chisel off some of the $1500. There are some very nice late model J45's that could be had for around $1500 that should have less playability issues.

Cheers and welcome!

 

 

Thanks so much for the reply. No volute.

 

What is the last year of the 'good bracing' that is not accompanied by an overly thin neck? I am over 6' with properly proportioned hands, so thicker is better within reason. Do you have to get to 61-62 to get thick neck, thin braces? Yes it is local to me, I can see it whenever I want, just need to know what I am looking at - which is why I asked for possible sites with images for comparison.

 

Thanks again. And the pricing tips are helpful and in line with my initial reaction. I know it should be at the lower end of the range versus, for example here is an earlier one on Reverb now... 1961 J-45, $3500.. But if the 1961 is going to keep going up in value, rather pay up now and have a better long-term "investment", especially if that comes with noticeable better sound.

[Boyd]

I am not very concerned about collectibility, but I do want to try to be able to sell in a few years if necessary near the price where I bought

 

Seems to me you are concerned about collectibility in that case. ;)

 

I would agree with the others that $1500 is closer to the right price, probably even a bit high unless there's something exceptional about this one. I got my 65 J-50 at a local Guitar Center a year ago and they had a square shouldered 69 J-45 that I also tried. It was very similar to my 1974 J-50 in terms of sound so it didn't interest me. But I believe they were asking $1500 for it, and I'll bet you could have talked them down 20% since it had been there awhile (I got the 65 J-50 for 20% off).

[latestart]

Fair point.. More correct to say whatever year has to be good value for it's year. A $500 '69 might make more sense than a $5,000 1962. But fair point.

[aliasphobias]

It gets tricky in the 60's latestart. Pre '64 for the light bracing (IIRC) but the nut width is all over the place. Later '60's is heavier bracing but more consistent neck width/size.

You are on the right path,it sounds like, by paying upfront for an early '60's and getting the features you find attractive but then enter other less attractive attributes,i.e. adjustable bridge, plywood bridge pads, etc. Truly is a worthwhile hunt, but daunting at times.

[latestart]

This has been helpful. The good news is I think the '69 sounds pretty damn good - but I have very limited experience with J45's.

 

If the earlier 60's and Post 80's sound even better then it will be fun to check out more versions! Will go check out some more locally and report back. Good times.

[zombywoof]

Cannot really tell whether it is a late 1968 or 1969.

 

The main structural difference between the two years would be that the top bracing got heavier in 1968 and even bulkier in 1969. Probably depends on how early or late in the year the guitar was built.

[j45nick]

This has been helpful. The good news is I think the '69 sounds pretty damn good - but I have very limited experience with J45's.

 

If the earlier 60's and Post 80's sound even better then it will be fun to check out more versions! Will go check out some more locally and report back. Good times.

 

 

Check out a modern Gibson J-45 or Hummingbird from the late-90's on. You can probably snag any number of those with a $1500 budget. A decent vintage J-45 pre-1960 will set you back in the $4-$5k range, more for older and/or better condition. You might find a late 50's (round) to early 60's (square) Country Western (basically a fancy J-45 or a slightly simpler hummingbird) for $3.5k with luck.

 

But buying vintage is tricky, and it's easy to get burned if you don't have either a reputable dealer or a fair amount of knowledge.

[latestart]

So is the 9101XX serial number of no value a putting it at early 1968? The missing 'Made in America' is also confusing for 1969. But I understand there are inconsistencies...

 

Here is what I read:

897000 to 898999 1967 or 1969

899000 to 899999 1968

900000 to 901999 1970

910000 to 999999 1968

[zombywoof]

It gets tricky in the 60's latestart. Pre '64 for the light bracing (IIRC) but the nut width is all over the place. Later '60's is heavier bracing but more consistent neck width/size.

 

 

 

The nut width from 1947 to 1965 was steady at 1 11/16" Also there was no change to the top bracing between 1955 and 1968 other than the B45-12 and J-200. So a 1967 J-45 will have the same bracing as a 1956. And you would not have a volute on either a 1968 or 1969 guitar.

[zombywoof]

So is the 9101XX serial number of no value a putting it at early 1968? The missing 'Made in America' is also confusing for 1969. But I understand there are inconsistencies...

 

Here is what I read:

897000 to 898999 1967 or 1969

899000 to 899999 1968

900000 to 901999 1970

910000 to 999999 1968

 

 

Nope because Gibson rolled over the serial numbers during the 1960s. So you will find guitars made in 1968 with SNs in 3XXXXX, 5XXXXX and 6XXXXX range as well.

 

And the "Made in the USA" stamp, if I recall correctly, did not show up until 1970 so that is no help.

 

If the guitar was an early '68, as example, I would expect to see one of the large pointy pickguards on it.

[j45nick]

So is the 9101XX serial number of no value a putting it at early 1968? The missing 'Made in America' is also confusing for 1969. But I understand there are inconsistencies...

 

Here is what I read:

897000 to 898999 1967 or 1969

899000 to 899999 1968

900000 to 901999 1970

910000 to 999999 1968

 

It is of limited value, since the characteristics of the guitar are not consistent with early 1968, or at least not any early 1968 I've ever seen. As I said, those serial number daters are not always accurate, particularly in the late 1960's to early 1970's. Early 1968 is highly unlikely.

[Martin 1940D28]

My own opinion would be, "this Gibson era" one size fits all, just a different color. The square shoulder. They are not bad guitars, extreme high quality materials throughout with a nice sound. Quality is a 'hellavalot better than some of the "top notch" builds today. Face it, nothing beats a "vintage".

[latestart]

So sounds like there was some bracing change starting in 1968. And then more in 1970 and later? Is there a more detailed discussion of bracing somewhere?

 

Is the move from shorter to longer scale generally consider positive or negative?

 

Any thoughts on the big saddle versus a wood plug and smaller/typical saddle (as a replacement for the adjustible)?

 

Thanks for all the comments, i am learning a lot.

[aliasphobias]

The nut width from 1947 to 1965 was steady at 1 11/16" Also there was no change to the top bracing between 1955 and 1968 other than the B45-12 and J-200. So a 1967 J-45 will have the same bracing as a 1956. And you would not have a volute on either a 1968 or 1969 guitar.

 

 

This has not been my experience, especially in regard to nut width. Whether due to the inconsistency with serial numbers I have seen '63,'64,& '65 @ 1 5/8",

1 9/16" as well as 1 11/16".

As for volute on the headstock, I was trying to help rule out later than '69 square.

I will defer. I was only trying to be helpful but will be the first to admit misinformation is not helpful.:) My apology offered.

Good luck on your search for a j45!

[j45nick]

This has not been my experience, especially in regard to nut width. Whether due to the inconsistency with serial numbers I have seen '63,'64,& '65 @ 1 5/8",

1 9/16" as well as 1 11/16".

 

 

That's been my experience as well, and it varies by model. I've seen the very narrow nut as early as 1963, even though the wider 1 11/16" nut may have been the nominal standard until 1965. I always take a small steel pocket rule with me (6"/150mm) when I go to look at vintage guitars.

[latestart]

Additional wrinkle.

Could there be bracing differences WITHIN the 1969 year of manufacturing?

 

Here is a link to an advert suggesting some Square Shoulder have different bracing than others? Is this just marketing?

"1969 Gibson J-45

Very early Square Shoulder Version

Same bridge, bracing and specs as '69 Round Shoulder"

1969 J45 Square Shoulder, $1875.

[E-minor7]

I have played is it VERY loud and clear with a distinct voice.

 

2) Compared to early in the 1960's there are changes to the bracing in 1968 or 1969 that made the guitar less desirable.

6) Is there a online site to show the differences in bracing between 1968-69 if there is a change?

I am not very concerned about collectibility, but I do want to try to be able to sell in a few years if necessary near the price where I bought presuming I maintain/improve the condition of the guitar.

 

Thoughts???

 

Lots of good'n'clean facts already delivered and only a few points can be added.

 

1/ Surprises me it is loud - good for you, I guess.

 

2/ 68-69 wouldn't make any important difference. Brace- nor else wise.

 

3/ Squares from 60 to 67 and the ones after that are 2 totally different animals.

Then again there are certain similarities, but the overall nature, feel and primarily projection live on each side of a fence.

Any buyer of a sixties square G should be aware of this.

68'ers and forward as we know are bulkier, but also have longer scale length. Not sure if this is counts for all, but keep an eye on it.

 

Regarding the colour why not call it burgundy burst. .

 

Keep us reported - Good luck

[latestart]

1/ Surprises me it is loud - good for you, I guess.

 

It's all relative. I had never played a Gibson prior. Remember it doesn't have the original bridge - it's got a big piece of bone in there... The reason it caught my attention was the volume. It sounds very 'bold' and 'forward' to me... but I am no expert.

 

I have to go find another J45 for comparison...

[E-minor7]

I have to go find another J45 for comparison...

 

Yes, do that - and prepare your ears and wallet for the pre-68/65's.

 

Ouh, , , if you go 45 and 45 only, you'll end in the slope department.

 

 

 

[zombywoof]

So sounds like there was some bracing change starting in 1968. And then more in 1970 and later? Is there a more detailed discussion of bracing somewhere?

 

 

 

 

Check over at the UMGF in the Vintage Corner. There is a lot of discussion of Gibson bracing with photographs. I think there is even a Gibson Bracing library. But if I recall, it is mostly in regard to vintage Gibsons so it may not pick up on guitars built as late as 1969/1969. But it is worth a look.

[E-minor7]

Check over at the UMGF in the Vintage Corner.

 

D'you have the exact link to this site - I get the Vintage Corner, but can't find G-bracings.

[mike m]

It's a 1969. Suare shoulder j-45 j-50 were made in this configuration, (Gibson pearloid?? headstock inlay, teardrop tortise pg, j-45 or j-50 on trc, belly down adjustable bridge, 25.50" scale, 1.72" nut, no inside sound hole sticker, no inside back seam cover strip.) The serial numbers of the period overlap with the 1968 numbers and were probably constucted or partially built in 1968 and earlier. They were sold in 1969 and 1970 as Diamond Jubilee Models for Gibson's 75th anniversary. The 1970 model has the "Made in USA" stamp below the serial number. 1970 was the first year that Gibson put the stamp on all their guitars.

m