Saddle problem

[BigKahune]

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Back in December I got a J-100 Xtra 12-string (no pickup). Very happy with the guitar, not happy with the saddle. At some point a previous owner replaced the factory saddle with a straight piece of bone (no compensation). It didn't fit very well - a bit too thin and the saddle was leaning in the slot. Tuning was a real chore - making compromises to get the best fit. So I planned on getting a new bone compensated saddle from Bob Colosi. I've gone to him a coupla times - great work. So last week I took the saddle out to take some measurements and to my surprise the saddle had a shim under it - a pine shim. Geez! Of course Bob wanted me to send him the saddle and shim. I did along with some slot measurements asking him to make the new saddle a bit thicker. Got the new saddle today - bone, B compensated and a bit thicker. He turned it around in a week. As usual Bob sent the saddle on the high and thick side so I could get a good fit. After a bit of sanding to lower the action and fit the thickness I put it in. As I tuned up the B compensation put it right where it should be - an easy tune, and the thickness is perfect. With the old saddle the sound was a tad muddy which I wrote of the the Hog back sides, but most likely it was that pine shim. Now it's cleaner/clearer - I'm liking it a lot.

 

Old saddle and shim .

 

 

New saddle -

 

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[j45nick]

Colosi saves the day yet again!

 

As far as I'm concerned, he's the go-to guy for saddles, nuts, and bridge pins. He'll custom-make whatever you need, out of a wide variety of materials, at a fair price.

 

I've been using him for about six years, and have been perfectly satisfied every time.

[MorrisrownSal]

Great to hear... I've done business a few times with him... And he always came through and delivered.

[jt]

That saddle looks a bit odd to me. Perhaps it's the camera angle. But, the contact point for the four (OK, 8) lower strings look identical, as though Colosi didn't provide any greater length to the low E than to the G. In my experience, that wouldn't yield the best results.

 

Here's a photo of a bone saddle (I prefer the unbleached variety) i made, revealing a different compensation for each string, based on my measurements and experimentation:

 

 

As you can see, I run the saddle apex from the front of the saddle on the G string to the back of the saddle on the E string. I vary this a bit depending on the scale length and the particular guitar, but always provide individual compensation for each string.

 

Updated: actually, all strings but the B appear to have the same contact point. Very curious.

[j45nick]

 

Updated: actually, all strings but the B appear to have the same contact point. Very curious.

 

That's the standard Colosi Gibson saddle compensation unless you provide additional information: only B-string compensated. Stewmac's compensated saddles for both Gibson and Martin are only B-string compensated as well. None of my Gibsons has a compensated saddle, in large part because they are all skinny slot-through saddles, where you can't get enough compensation to make it worth the effort.

 

Some higher-end Martins come with fully-compensated saddles. The thicker saddle on my OOO-28 EC makes full compensation practical: (just ignore the fact that the pins hadn't been sanded to size here)

 

[BigKahune]

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@JT - That seems a lot of work, but certainly would dial in the best tune/intonation.

 

I have a Taylor 12 string with a factory saddle that individually compensates the strings for length and height - height so that each pair of strings of the lower 8 strings are the same height.

 

 

 

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[jt]

That's the standard Colosi Gibson saddle compensation ...

I'm stunned. IMNSHO, that's a very crudely made product. It can't possibly provide for ideal intonation. I can't imagine purchasing one.

 

It takes me 20 to 30 minutes to produce a fully compensated saddle from a bone blank (I prefer the unbleached, not only for appearance, but because the bleaching process can, imho, reduce the bone density). I cut to length, crudely shape the saddle with a belt sander (mounted upside down on my work bench), and then file to my predetermined shape. For all of my guitars, I've used and electronic tuner and futzed with tuning each string to determine how many millimeters I need to move the saddle contact point to produce the best intonation on average.

 

Again, I'm stunned by the Colosi product.

[jt]

in large part because they are all skinny slot-through saddles, where you can't get enough compensation to make it worth the effort.

Not so. I've fully compensated many a skinny, vintage Gibson through saddle. Tomorrow I'll post a pic of the saddle I made for my 1929 Nick Lucas.

[BigKahune]

I'm stunned. IMNSHO, that's a very crudely made product. It can't possibly provide for ideal intonation. I can't imagine purchasing one. ... Again, I'm stunned by the Colosi product.

 

To be fair to Bob, I could've ordered a saddle one with a snaked ridge like your homemade, but I ordered a B-compensated saddle. This is a standard item where ever you look to purchase an acoustic saddle and there are a lot of players that use them. Instead of focusing on Colosi, I would rather say that my tolerance for intonation accuracy is a bit lax and shift this to a general discussion of acoustic saddle compensations.

 

I have more than a couple of guitars that have straight saddle ridges and they work just fine according to my sense of what's acceptable intonation. My old D-45 has a straight ridged factory saddle that's about as close as you can get to perfect and it still amazes me. Some of my guitars have B-compensations, one has B & G compensations, one has multiple length and height compensations (pics above) and two have snaked ridges like your homemade.

 

Thanks for the info on bleaching bone, I wasn't aware of that. Looking for that pic of the skinny Lucas saddle - that must've been tough work with a belt sander. . B)

 

 

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[jt]

To be fair to Bob, I could've ordered a saddle one with a snaked ridge like your homemade, but I ordered a B-compensated saddle. This is a standard item where ever you look to purchase an acoustic saddle and there are a lot of players that use them. Instead of focusing on Colosi, I would rather say that my tolerance for intonation accuracy is a bit lax and shift this to a general discussion of acoustic saddle compensations.

A very fair and good point.

 

From my perspective, it only takes another couple of minutes to provide compensation to the other strings. Here's my saddle on the 1929 Nick Lucas (with 1929 bridge pins!):

 

[j45nick]

Here's a pretty decent discussion on the topic:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg-0iDXx4jc

[BigKahune]

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Good vid Nick. Thanks.

 

He did a nice job of explaining factors affecting string lengths. I think it illustrates what I mentioned above - some guitars are fine with a straight ridged saddle, and some guitars need varying degrees of compensation on certain strings, which may sometimes involve compensations for all the strings.

 

 

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[jt]

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Good vid Nick. Thanks.

 

He did a nice job of explaining factors affecting string lengths. I think it illustrates what I mentioned above - some guitars are fine with a straight ridged saddle, and some guitars need varying degrees of compensation on certain strings, which may sometimes involve compensations for all the strings.

 

 

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Well, this fellow is definitely an outlier. No other individual or boutique builder ever sends a steel string guitar out the door without a fully compensated saddle. Sure, some (for example, short scale guitars) need more compensation than others. And some ears feel the need more than others. But, full compensation is always better than partial or no compensation.

 

Here's a nice explanation from my freind Paul Hostetter.

[j45nick]

Well, this fellow is definitely an outlier. No other individual or boutique builder ever sends a steel string guitar out the door without a fully compensated saddle.

 

You may want to remember that most of us buy off-the-shelf guitars from mass builders like Gibson, Martin, and Taylor. I don't own a boutique guitar, and have no particular inclination to spend the money for one. Most of my guitars have the saddles that came with them from the builder.

 

They usually sound fine to me--except for my playing. Maybe it's just that my 69-year-old ears aren't as sharp as they used to be.

 

When and if I get to guitar players' heaven I'll ask John Hurt and the Rev Gary Davis how they had their guitar saddles compensated.

[jt]

When and if I get to guitar players' heaven I'll ask John Hurt and the Rev Gary Davis how they had their guitar saddles compensated.

Alas, I'm not expecting to receive an invitation to player's heaven. Should the gods of guitar music make an error and I find myself there, however briefly, I'm planning to bring my files and sandpaper and offer to intonate those saddles, especially on Mr.. Hurt's Guild. :)

 

I certainly didn't mean to imply that folks ought to own boutique guitars or even that they are better instruments. Just that outside of the off-the-shelf world, where time and money aren't of the essence, folks intonate those saddles. In addition, I hoped to reveal just how easy it is to make a saddle for a guitar. Bone blanks are around $5 from StewMac and the recipe isn't complicated. Moreover, running the saddle apex from the front of the saddle at the G string to the back of the saddle on the E string really does only take a few minutes of filing.

 

Anyway, it makes no sense to care about this if your ears don't care. I certainly meant no offense. I was just very surprised to see that Mr. Colosi only compensates a single string.

 

Wave down from player's heaven if you spot me down below!

[BigKahune]

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Nice charts and explanation of the mechanics. But as far as filling slots and rerouting - if I had a guitar that far off I'd sell it. In the last couple decades there's been some interesting attempts at solving string length issues - split saddles, multiple saddles, etc - -

 

 

 

 

 

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[ksdaddy]

My '64 SJ had been converted to a fixed saddle sometime prior to my purchasing it in 1984. The saddle was very wrong, in that all notes were flat up the neck. I filled in the slot and made a new one slightly ahead of the old one, made a bone saddle, and all is fine. I have the ability to compensate a saddle and have done it, but it's not the default. If there is any intonation problem with this guitar, it's either very subtle or my ears are not refined to the point where I need to act on it.

 

 

I should also point out that my 1977 Telecaster retains its original 3 saddle bridge and it works fine.

 

I say again: "it's either very subtle or my ears are not refined to the point where I need to act on it". Not knocking anyone's choice of modification or lack thereof, just pointing out that we all have different standards as to what is acceptable.

[BigKahune]

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Nice work Scott and a good point on people having different standards as to what is acceptable.

 

Since I haven't looked closely at the saddles of boutique guitars, I went to a coupla what might be termed boutique/individual builder sites that get mentioned here from time to time - Kopp, Walker, and Santa Cruz. I didn't look at everything, but I didn't see any snake-ridged/fully compensated saddles on the Kopp or Walker sites. On the Santa Cruz site I did see snaked ridge fully compensated saddles with a hard 90 degree return to the back edge for the B.

 

Kopp small body with a B-compensated saddle -

 

 

A Walker with a bit of a low E and B compensation -

 

 

It was hard to find a good pic of a Santa Cruz with a snaked ridge, but I saw enough of them - similar to JT's in that the ridge runs from the back edge of the saddle at the low E to near the front edge of the saddle under the G and then returns sharply to the back edge for the B, and then closer to the front edge for the high E.

 

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[jt]

Great discussion and good work, Scott.

 

We may have found the catalyst for my elitist, intonist ways:

 

A Walker with a bit of a low E and B compensation.

 

Kim Walker is my favorite guitar builder and the fellow who schooled me in setups. Kim showed me how he intonates his saddles, with the (to my eyes) pleasing continuous curve, rather than sharp angles.

 

Kim ran George Gruhn's repair shop for some time and George still tells me that Kim is the best and most exacting craftsperson he's met. Alas, with his wait time now at about 8 years, Kim has stopped taking orders.

 

Anyway, I not only share Kim's aesthetic sensibilities, but his demand for the most precise intonation possible. Unless your strings are all the same gauge and the same distance from the fretboard, some individualization of saddle contact points is, to my ears, warranted.

 

But, if you don't hear it, you don't need it.

 

On edit: Plus, it just looks cooler!

[BigKahune]

We may have found the catalyst for my elitist, intonist ways... Kim Walker is my favorite guitar builder and the fellow who schooled me in setups. Kim showed me how he intonates his saddles, with the (to my eyes) pleasing continuous curve, rather than sharp angles. ...

 

Ha! . I would say you have fine ear for intonation with knowledge and practical experience.

 

I hope I described that above pic of a Walker saddle correctly. It's hard to tell - I think I can see the shadows of the low-E and B strings falling on the saddle in a way that indicates a bit of a compensation. After reading you comments, I looked again and I think I see there might be a slight compensation at the A string. Am I missing a gentle continuous curve on that one? It would certainly be more pleasing than the sharp return I see on the Santa Cruz saddles.

 

 

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[jt]

Ha! . I would say you have fine ear for intonation with knowledge and practical experience.

 

I hope I described that above pic of a Walker saddle correctly. It's hard to tell - I think I can see the shadows of the low-E and B strings falling on the saddle in a way that indicates a bit of a compensation. After reading you comments, I looked again and I think I see there might be a slight compensation at the A string. Am I missing a gentle continuous curve on that one? It would certainly be more pleasing than the sharp return I see on the Santa Cruz saddles.

Yes, there's a gentle, continuous curve there. I definitely copped Kim's technique, though not his fine execution.

 

Tomorrow I'll try to get good pics of the saddles of my Walkers.

[jt]

I thought that I'd post a pic of the guitar I own that was the hardest to get (close to) in tune: my CA Cargo travel guitar. The very short 22 inch scale called for rather extreme compensation of the (carbon fiber) saddle:

 

 

It's now pretty close to intonated!

[j45nick]

I thought that I'd post a pic of the guitar I own that was the hardest to get (close to) in tune: my CA Cargo travel guitar. The very short 22 inch scale called for rather extreme compensation of the (carbon fiber) saddle:

 

 

It's now pretty close to intonated!

 

 

JT,

That looks almost exactly like the stock, factory saddle on my Cargo. Have you tweaked it slightly from the factory intonation? If so, it doesn't appear to be by much, but as you say, on the very short scale, it makes more difference.

[jt]

JT,

That looks almost exactly like the stock, factory saddle on my Cargo. Have you tweaked it slightly from the factory intonation? If so, it doesn't appear to be by much, but as you say, on the very short scale, it makes more difference.

Nick,

 

Mine came from the factory with only the B string compensated. I increased that string's compensation, ran the high E and G strings as far forward on the saddle as possible, and then, with experimentation, settled on that "swoop" from the D near the front edge to the low E as far back as I could get it. It's much better now.

 

It's good news that the guitar now apparently comes with a fully compensated saddle!

[j45nick]

Nick,

 

Mine came from the factory with only the B string compensated. I increased that string's compensation, ran the high E and G strings as far forward on the saddle as possible, and then, with experimentation, settled on that "swoop" from the D near the front edge to the low E as far back as I could get it. It's much better now.

 

It's good news that the guitar now apparently comes with a fully compensated saddle!

 

My Cargo is at least four years old, but it came with a fully-compensated saddle. Maybe they figured out early on that it was problematic.

 

I don't worry that much about intonation on acoustics, since the only time I play much above the ninth fret or so is when I do scales. Fortunately, my electrics have tune-o-matic bridges, which have (and need) a lot of range for compensation. It's amazing how important intonation is if you're playing "straight" notes up around the 19th fret on an amplified guitar. When I was a kid, I never could figure out why most electrics sounded so bad when played up the neck.