1947 -48 Gibson j45 Neck reset

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, RBSinTo said:

zombywolf,

Thanks for the explanation.

Does the Factory Order Number either double as the Serial Number of a particular instrument, or make up part of it?

From what I've been able to pick up in other conversations here, it sounds like Gibson's record-keeping over the years has been less than stellar.

RBSinTo

 

It is not so much the record keeping was less than stellar as decoding the FONs has thus far been elusive. There appears to have been no rhyme or reason to the numbers assigned. 

As to the FON though, I will do the best I can.   The first sequence of numbers or a combination of numbers and a letter in the FON tells you only what batch the guitar was part of.  The second number separated by a hyphen tells you exactly what number your guitar was in that batch so taken as whole is the same thing as a serial number.   So I know my 1942 J50  was the fifth guitar built in the first batch of J50s shipped in 1942.   How many were built in that batch I will probably never know.  And it will not show up individually in the WWII-era Gibson ledger books telling me the exact date it was shipped.

In the case of the OPs guitar, Gibson stopped stamping the FON on the neck block in late-1945 and did not resume doing it consistently until sometime in 1948.  So you have to go by features.  The problem is it is not  like Gibson changed the specs at the stroke of midnight on January 1 so there will always be some overlap. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by zombywoof

[tpbiii]

6 hours ago, RBSinTo said:

zombywolf,

Thanks for the explanation.

Does the Factory Order Number either double as the Serial Number of a particular instrument, or make up part of it?

From what I've been able to pick up in other conversations here, it sounds like Gibson's record-keeping over the years has been less than stellar.

RBSinTo

They had both, and a guitar was assigned both -- BUT often none, one, or both appeared on the guitar.  Pre 1930s stuff is much more likely to include serial numbers.  FON are most common.

Let me say something about neck setting old J-45s.  I don't the range of dates when this was true, but it certainly was true during WWII.  The dove tails were very rough, certainly compared to period Martins.  I had this 44 neck set by Mark Bramlett -- who had done zillions of old Martins. 

His comment was "it has more compound curves than a hoochie coochie dancer -- I used reams of carbon paper and many hours to get it right."  Message:  it is generally harder than a Martin so you  should get someone who actually knows what they are doing.

Best,

-Tom

 

[j45nick]

12 minutes ago, tpbiii said:

They had both, and a guitar was assigned both -- BUT often none, one, or both appeared on the guitar.  Pre 1930s stuff is much more likely to include serial numbers.  FON are most common.

Let me say something about neck setting old J-45s.  I don't the range of dates when this was true, but it certainly was true during WWII.  The dove tails were very rough, certainly compared to period Martins.  I had this 44 neck set by Mark Bramlett -- who had done zillions of old Martins. 

His comment was "it has more compound curves than a hoochie coochie dancer -- I used reams of carbon paper and many hours to get it right."  Message:  it is generally harder than a Martin so you  should get someone who actually knows what they are doing.

Best,

-Tom

 

For those who don't know, either carbon paper or blue carpenter's chalk are used in fitting complex joints.  I use chalk, but carbon paper is used in a similar fashion by a lot of people. You rub chalk on one surface of the joint (or fit a piece of carbon paper to one part),   and fit the pieces together. The transfer of carbon or chalk from one part to the other shows where they touch each other.

As a general rule you work down the high points of chalk or carbon transfer, re-chalk the parts, and fit them together again, repeating this process ad infinitum to fit a complex joint perfectly. you are finished when the chalk or carbon transfers completely to the part surfaces, or at least as close as is practical.

 It is time-consuming, but boatbuilders, fine furniture makers, and instrument makers have probably used this method or something similar since Noah first put an edge on a bronze chisel and dug a piece of chalk out of the ground.

[jedzep]

Interesting woodworking info, Nick. Thanks.
PM coming.

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, tpbiii said:

They had both, and a guitar was assigned both -- BUT often none, one, or both appeared on the guitar.  Pre 1930s stuff is much more likely to include serial numbers.  FON are most common.

Let me say something about neck setting old J-45s.  I don't the range of dates when this was true, but it certainly was true during WWII.  The dove tails were very rough, certainly compared to period Martins.  I had this 44 neck set by Mark Bramlett -- who had done zillions of old Martins. 

His comment was "it has more compound curves than a hoochie coochie dancer -- I used reams of carbon paper and many hours to get it right."  Message:  it is generally harder than a Martin so you  should get someone who actually knows what they are doing.

Best,

-Tom

 

 

While I have seen plane marks on 1930s Gibsons, to describe Banners as being rough hewn is being generous.   But the question still remains as to has anybody  seen a post-War or any Gibson with a batch number stamped on the neck and in the neck pocket.  In a way it makes no sense as the form with the order to build X  amount of Y models existed and would have been passed on by management to the shop foremen.    

Edited October 25, 2020 by zombywoof

[tpbiii]

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

 

While I have seen plane marks on 1930s Gibsons, to describe Banners as being rough hewn is being generous.   But the question still remains as to has anybody  seen a post-War or any Gibson with a batch number stamped on the neck and in the neck pocket.  In a way it makes no sense as the form with the order to build X  amount of Y models existed and would have been passed on by management to the shop foremen.    

Not I.

[75 Hummingbird]

I have passed along the O.P. information to Gruhn Guitars .......

[75 Hummingbird]

Well i`m back .

Great conclusive news back from the Gruhn`s Guitar Shop.

The stamped number inside the dovetail joint and on the neck dovetail are indeed the Factory Order Batch Number.

2247 ,indicating the year of production 1947 .

The contact at Gruhn`s is a well respected appraiser .

[tpbiii]

6 minutes ago, 75 Hummingbird said:

Well i`m back .

Great conclusive news back from the Gruhn`s Guitar Shop.

The stamped number inside the dovetail joint and on the neck dovetail are indeed the Factory Order Batch Number.

2247 ,indicating the year of production 1947 .

The contact at Gruhn`s is a well respected appraiser .

 

The person who does that (there might be more than one) for Gruhn now is Joe Spann.  That indeed would be the right gut to ask!

-Tom

[j45nick]

13 hours ago, 75 Hummingbird said:

Well i`m back .

Great conclusive news back from the Gruhn`s Guitar Shop.

The stamped number inside the dovetail joint and on the neck dovetail are indeed the Factory Order Batch Number.

2247 ,indicating the year of production 1947 .

The contact at Gruhn`s is a well respected appraiser .

That's really interesting, but it poses a dilemma: if you have a Gibson from the late 40's era, with no FON inside, do you remove the neck to see if it's stamped there?

Probably not.

[Dave F]

9 hours ago, j45nick said:

That's really interesting, but it poses a dilemma: if you have a Gibson from the late 40's era, with no FON inside, do you remove the neck to see if it's stamped there?

Probably not.

Maybe MRI

[75 Hummingbird]

Whats a few hundred bucks ? I`m having a hoot !

I bought this guitar being advertised as a 1950 ,i knew immediately by looking at the rectangular bridge it was older than that .

This was the sellers Dad`s guitar which he bought new in 1950 . The owner of the guitar played it right up until his passing in 2018 .

I am the second owner now .

I have read and researched a pile of Gibson material  over the past 25 plus years and never have i read that the Factor Order Batch Number of this era Gibson was hidden away in a safe place .

Tom you hit the nail on the head !