J-45 History

[jibberish]

Overwhelmed looking this up on my own.

If I wanted a vintage Gibson J-45 with and adjustable truss rod and the teardrop pickguard, what between what years would I look?

1947-1954?

[Dave F]

42-54 with a few exceptions with the truss rod in the 43-44 era. 

[jibberish]

1 minute ago, Dave F said:

42-54 with a few exceptions with the truss rod in the 43-44 era. 

So the adjustable truss rod was introduced in '42?

What accounts for your '43-'44 footnote?

[Dave F]

Adjustable truss rod goes way back before J45’s were designed. I don’t know the year but I believe it was in the early 20’s . 43-44 absence was due to the war effort. 

[jibberish]

Just now, Dave F said:

Adjustable truss rod goes way back before J45’s were designed. I don’t know the year but I believe it was in the early 20’s . 43-44 absence was due to the war effort. 

Mmmmm...not sure.

I thought that TRUSS RODS were indeed inside all J-45s....but they were not ADJUSTABLE until a certain year., ie, no access to them.

I think the adjustables were introduced in the late '40s.

 

[Dave F]

Google it. 1921. 
 

1921

 

Ted McHugh, a Gibson employee, inventedthe modern guitar truss rod in 1921.
 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Dave F

[jibberish]

19 minutes ago, Dave F said:

Google it. 1921. 
 

1921

 

Ted McHugh, a Gibson employee, inventedthe modern guitar truss rod in 1921.
 

Ahhh, I see now.

I had it mixed up in my head.

Thank you!

[zombywoof]

13 hours ago, jibberish said:

So the adjustable truss rod was introduced in '42?

What accounts for your '43-'44 footnote?

Ted McHugh also held the patent for the adjustable bridge.   The earliest guitars I have seen with the truss rod dated to 1923 . 

[zombywoof]

If you are unwashed when it comes to old Gibsons you would do well to buy from a big sexy dealer.  You will pay more more but will also be assured of getting what you think you are in the condition described.  

I also do not get the preoccupation with the teardrop pickguard.   The J45 started going through changes in 1947 which picked up steam in the early 1950s when the builds became heavier while features which had been found in jumbos since there were jumbos such as the tapered headstock and side supports began disappearing.   Not a good or a bad thing just different.  I also would not rule out Gibsons built from 1955 to 1960.  I owned a 1956 SJ which in retrospect I never should have let go of.  There was a real magic to its punchy and quick sound.  This guitar actually acquired a local reputation among store owners who sold vintage instruments as the one to beat when it came to sound.   But I owned it back in the day when I could not acquire a guitar without letting another one go.  That SJ though still haunts me and stands as a stark reminder that some of the biggest mistakes I have ever made were trading or selling off guitars.

Edited April 18, 2021 by zombywoof

[jibberish]

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

If you are unwashed when it comes to old Gibsons you would do well to buy from a big sexy dealer.  You will pay more more but will also be assured of getting what you think you are in the condition described.  

I also do not get the preoccupation with the teardrop pickguard.   The J45 started going through changes in 1947 which picked up steam in the early 1950s when the builds became heavier while features which had been found in jumbos since there were jumbos such as the tapered headstock and side supports began disappearing.   Not a good or a bad thing just different.  I also would not rule out Gibsons built from 1955 to 1960.  I owned a 1956 SJ which in retrospect I never should have let go of.  There was a real magic to its punchy and quick sound.  This guitar actually acquired a local reputation among store owners who sold vintage instruments as the one to beat when it came to sound.   But I owned it back in the day when I could not acquire a guitar without letting another one go.  That SJ though still haunts me and stands as a stark reminder that some of the biggest mistakes I have ever made were trading or selling off guitars.

I certainly agree with what you said.

If I am holding a guitar and I'm in love with it's sound, I do not care what shape the pickguard is. 

All things being equal, however, I would prefer less of anything attached to the top. So a teardrop pickguard for me.

Also, I'd prefer the smaller profiled rectangle bridge. No belly-up/down for me.

[j45nick]

47 minutes ago, jibberish said:

 

Also, I'd prefer the smaller profiled rectangle bridge. No belly-up/down for me.

Now you are constraining yourself to guitars built no later than early in 1948. Why that particular obsession? The standard post-1947 belly-up J-45 bridge gives a bit more bearing surface of the bridge on the top, reducing the tendency for string tension to want to force the front of the bridge down into the top.

I doubt you are going to be able to objectively quantify tonal differences based on that one characteristic, and you just increased your budget in the vintage market by probably at least $1000 by limiting the years of guitars to look at. 

You also took away most of the modern J-45 market except for the J-45 Legend and a few other vintage re-issues, which are  harder to find and may be more expensive.

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

[zombywoof]

While I do not want to come off as a "know it all" I would say you need to lose some of the pre-conceived notions which are guiding you and essentially limiting your choices.  While aesthetically  I prefer the rectangular bridge, J45nick's take on the belly up bridge is well worth listening to.  In the case of the pickguards, those Gibson used prior to the early-1960s were very thin and did not provide enough mass to dampen the top.  It was the same pickguard they had been using on the J-185 and others.  

Edited April 18, 2021 by zombywoof

[jibberish]

Thanks, Zombie and Nick.

It's all purely aesthetics. I'd take a teardrop over the long pickguard the same way I'd take a D-18 or 28 over a gaudy D-45.

Along about 1954 when the longer pickguard was introduced didn't they also start using the adjustable saddle? I don't find those aesthetically appealing either. Don't even get me started on the late 60s when the shoulders got started getting square!  lol

[zombywoof]

18 minutes ago, jibberish said:

Thanks, Zombie and Nick.

It's all purely aesthetics. I'd take a teardrop over the long pickguard the same way I'd take a D-18 or 28 over a gaudy D-45.

Along about 1954 when the longer pickguard was introduced didn't they also start using the adjustable saddle? I don't find those aesthetically appealing either. Don't even get me started on the late 60s when the shoulders got started getting square!  lol

The ADJ saddle bridge was introduced as an option on the J45/50 in 1956.  It became standard on pretty much all models in 1961 although Gibson still shipped several hundred of the models with fixed pin bridges that year.  The thing about Gibson is it is not like they changed specs at the stroke of midnight on January 1.  Gibson was a pragmatic and conservative company and there is always going to be a transition period where if nothing else they were going through leftover stock or parts on hand.  

Edited April 18, 2021 by zombywoof

[tpbiii]

On 4/18/2021 at 3:39 PM, jibberish said:

Thanks, Zombie and Nick.

It's all purely aesthetics. I'd take a teardrop over the long pickguard the same way I'd take a D-18 or 28 over a gaudy D-45.

Along about 1954 when the longer pickguard was introduced didn't they also start using the adjustable saddle? I don't find those aesthetically appealing either. Don't even get me started on the late 60s when the shoulders got started getting square!  lol

I have a lot of old Gibsons which I use for other stuff.  In a general way, I think of participating in historically different acoustic genres -- a major deciding line for me was sort of the historic traditional genres and the folk revival genre.  Many of the former are power genres -- particularly traditional bluegrass but also other traditional string band genres as well.  In comparison, the folk revival stuff is usually much milder.  Now my late wife and I loved both genres, but for us they were not the same and required different instruments.

The 30s Gibsons (and Martins) often had amazing power -- both started to lose strength about 1940.  Gibson power arguably dropped of quicker, but both dropped off.  I can easily notice a difference between 1940-1945, 1945-1950 and 1950-1954.  After that, none of them work for me for the traditional side of the line.  However they did work well for the folk revival.

Here are (most of) my Js.  I have four J-45s (43, 44, 45, 53) and two mahogany SJs (43, 54) -- which are basically the same series of guitars if you ignore decoration.  For those guitars, I basically lost interest in guitars that had the bat wing pickguards J-45/SJ -- not because of the pickguard but because 1954 was the last year with scalloped braces -- It is easy to hear the difference.  I own later Gibsons, but I consider them to be different guitars and we used then for different stuff. 

I hope this helps.

Best,

-Tom

[bobouz]

Gibson's adjustable truss rod first appeared on a few production instruments in late 1921.

It was officially in regular production and touted as a structural selling point in 1922.

I have an early 1922 Gibson 'A' mandolin with an adjustable trussrod - a very early trussrod example.  It works perfectly to this day, and the ebony fingerboard is straight as a arrow.  In fact, although worn with ample signs of player use, the entire mandolin is free of cracks and 100% structurally sound.  Not bad for an instrument that'll be 100 years old next year!   

[tpbiii]

I guess this was the historical turning point.  This is a c. 1920 Gibson F-4 -- a "Lloyd Loar" F4.  Lloyd Loar famously introduced the adjustable truss rod when he arrived in 1921.  At that time, there were a number of inlaid double pot F4 necks already on the bench.  Lloyd  had them routed and a truss rod installed.  Opinions vary whether on balance this was a good idea for those instruments. 😵

Let's pick,

-Tom

[jibberish]

On 4/22/2021 at 10:10 PM, tpbiii said:

I have a lot of old Gibsons which I use for other stuff.  In a general way, I think of participating in historically different acoustic genres -- a major deciding line for me was sort of the historic traditional genres and the folk revival genre.  Many of the former are power genres -- particularly traditional bluegrass but also other traditional string band genres as well.  In comparison, the folk revival stuff is usually much milder.  Now my late wife and I loved both genres, but for us they were not the same and required different instruments.

The 30s Gibsons (and Martins) often had amazing power -- both started to lose strength about 1940.  Gibson power arguably dropped of quicker, but both dropped off.  I can easily notice a difference between 1940-1945, 1945-1950 and 1950-1954.  After that, none of them work for me for the traditional side of the line.  However they did work well for the folk revival.

Here are (most of) my Js.  I have four J-45s (43, 44, 45, 53) and two mahogany SJs (43, 54) -- which are basically the same series of guitars if you ignore decoration.  For those guitars, I basically lost interest in guitars that had the bat wing pickguards J-45/SJ -- not because of the pickguard but because 1954 was the last year with scalloped braces -- It is easy to hear the difference.  I own later Gibsons, but I consider them to be different guitars and we used then for different stuff. 

I hope this helps.

Best,

-Tom

Does your SJ back/center have what is called a bat-wing pickguard?

What do they call the elongated pickguards that were stock in the 60's?

And again, as far as aesthetics go, I'm taking your front row/left end, or your middle row/right end.

[cunningham26]

i guess it's a good thing your aesthetic choices are in line with some of gibson's best guitars, even if it's going to hurt your wallet pretty considerably. i'd be in touch with retrofret, folkways, or tr crandall as they seem to specialize and aren't going to gouge you like some other rare guitar dealers.