J50 Restoration. Need opinions

[Chumpy36]

Hi all,

 

I came by this guitar (best guess is a 1963) from my wife's uncle. It has been terribly mistreated. It was apparently stored down in a basement for years next to a furnace or radiator and has obviously had a lot of issues because of it. I decided to take a stab out of making it a player because I loved the idea of having a vintage guitar I could actually play. First Luthier I think did a pretty good job. The issues were...

1. Loose bracing

2. Bridge pulling up (see side pics)

3. Remove weird plastic rosette someone had put there to protect from strumming damage

4. Straighten wavy gravy pickguard and reglue
5. Replace bridge with non adjustable bridge and setup
6. Remove janky 1/4" plug someone drilled into side of the guitar

The idea was this would get it to playable condition and it would let me decide whether I wanted to spend more to get it right or just keep it as a heirloom. I've decided I REALLY like the sound of it and want to continue playing it. I decided to keep the custom teenage artwork on the front as a part of the guitar's story even though I don't love it. 

Continuing issues.

1. There's a pretty big belly on the guitar. Not sure if this can ever be fixed but the repair guy compensated and the action is awesome. I was warned it might be a good idea to use light strings
2. The rosette still has some structural issues and could prolly be shored up. 
3. While replacing the strap button with a straplock button the heel block cracked off (even though I used the same screw). I glued it back but there's a line that looks unsightly (see pics)
4. Considerable fretwear on the first 4 frets
5. Considerable scalloping of the fretboard in the first 4 frets
6. Top continues to crack even though I've been careful to keep it humidified. I'm not sure if it a problem with the belly below the bridge or something else but there's a new crack I diascovered this week
7. The tuners aren't great. I removed the original because several were very stiff and replaced it with a set of allparts aged vintage set which look good but still aren't very accurate, since it's a frankenstein I wonder if plugging the holes and putting Grover or something else on there might make sense?


I guess what I'm asking is WWGGFD? Would you spend the money (if these problems can even be fixed? I don't know that they can be) to get it into stable playing shape? The other option is to just stop and play it occasionally and admire it. I plan to get another J-50 (prolly the 60's original version) to play out with etc. But I'd kind of hate to never play this one again. 

Pics are here: The first four are how I received the guitar the rest are post first round of repairs.

https://imgur.com/a/OmK20Jz

Thoughts?

[Boyd]

I have a real 1965 J-50 that is in pretty good shape. I followed prices for used ones for awhile, and they seemed to bottom out about a year ago but appear to have gone back up to pre-pandemic levels now. For example, there's a 1965 for $3100 at Guitar Center now. Guess it depends on how deep your pockets are and how much sentimental value to assign to the guitar, looks pretty ugly in your pictures. Don't think I'd put much into it myself.

The original tuners on mine were very stiff and I spent awhile doing all the recommended things to recondition them but still wasn't happy. WD Music Products bought the Kluson name and all of their old designs. They make very accurate looking replicas that work well, they should fit the original holes with no "plugging". Here's an example, but these are the "double line" style and I wanted "single line" to match the originals which I had to shop around to find

https://www.wdmusic.com/kluson-3-on-a-plate-supreme-series-tuning-machines-details.html

I just got a 2020 60's Original J-50 and really like it so far. But it's quite different from a real vintage J-50. The neck is  more narrow than my 2006 J-50 with a nut that is the same width as my 1965 J-50. However, it is much thicker than the real 1965 J-50, and by the time you get to the 4th fret the circumference is the same as the 2006 J-50. It has Grover replicas of the original Kluson 3-on-a-plate tuners that look good and operate well. Not sure if you can buy these separately.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Boyd

[zombywoof]

Is the guitar worth the money to fix up properly?   You betcha.  A number of the issues  such as the divots in the fretboard, bellying, and cracks are not a big deal and based on what I have paid to have such issues dealt with in the past should not be all that expensive.  That added rosette is rather hideous.  It might be possible to undo it though.  Also if you are planning to replace the bridge entirely you should also consider replacing the bridge plate.  Depends on whether you are concerned about the ability to return the guitar to stock condition.  And I personally would have left the input jack just where it was as it was not hurting anything.  Kind cool looking.

I had my 1942 J50 restored.  It was decades ago so I do not recall all that was done but the work included repairing an open back seam and four open back cracks, loose braces, replacing a non-original bridge and pickguard (they looked to have come off a Yamaha) and such.  Making it worse somebody had slathered glue all over the inside of the back in an attempt to  repair the cracks.  It looked like a glue pot had exploded in there.  My repair guy was a second generation luthier.  He was about as old school as it gets.  He worked out of a shed behind his house and rather than say buy a more suitable bridge to replace the one on the guitar he made one himself out of a stock piece of Brazilian rosewood he had on hand.   Only drawback was he worked by himself  and was known to be hard to find during turkey hunting season so it took a full year to get  the guitar back to me.  I used to call and ask how my Gibson was coming along and would get an answer like it is in pieces all over the shop.  Coincidentally I was also advised to stick with light gauge  strings.  But in the case of my guitar it was because the guitar was extremely lightly built.  Not by design but just a quirk of the build.   

Edited June 6, 2021 by zombywoof

[J185cat]

You can schedule a 15 minute zoom call with Gibson Repair and Restoration and they can give you opinions on the extent and cost. No obligation either.  Really nice service Gibson is offering now and yes, of course they are hoping to get more business from this, it’s a business!

[62burst]

Fretboard divots are a real turnoff for me- a deep resurface of the 'board, or replacement is much preferred over filling, which almost always looks strange. Splicing in slivers externally and small cleats inside of spruce can be done for the top cracks. It might involve a slight overspray to blend, but would greatly improve their appearance. If braces need to be removed (even partially so) for that repair, the cost would jump some.  Gibson guitars have some belly to them- get your J-50 to a vintage Gibson repair shop, and see what their thoughts are.

You are now the steward of this old guitar. The repairs that it might need aren't going to be that terrible, compared to the good you would do by getting this guitar back into a better condition for it's path going forward. It won't get any cheaper in the future. Just take it to the best shop you can find, and get yourself some good guitar karma.

 

[zombywoof]

5 minutes ago, 62burst said:

Fretboard divots are a real turnoff for me- a deep resurface of the 'board, or replacement is much preferred over filling, which almost always looks strange.

I had divots the size of Crater Lake in my 1956 SJ.  As best I can recall, my repair guy dug into the divots and raised some of the wood fibers and then used a filler of rosewood sawdust and resin or glue to fill them in.   Other that under a strong direct  sunlight you could not see where the work had been done while the filled spaces felt no different than the rest of the board.  

[62burst]

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

I had divots the size of Crater Lake in my 1956 SJ.  As best I can recall, my repair guy dug into the divots and raised some of the wood fibers and then used a filler of rosewood sawdust and resin or glue to fill them in.   Other that under a strong direct  sunlight you could not see where the work had been done while the filled spaces felt no different than the rest of the board.  

It would be interesting to see that- the raising of wood fibers in a rosewood fretboard. Maybe combined with a serious plane of the fretboard. There was a little bit on the '46 Southern Jumbo that I had in the luth's for a re-fresh. . . came out very well, but I was concerned about going too heavily into those split parallelogram inlays.

[Leonard McCoy]

Add a lifting bridge to your list of issues.

[zombywoof]

2 hours ago, 62burst said:

It would be interesting to see that- the raising of wood fibers in a rosewood fretboard. Maybe combined with a serious plane of the fretboard. There was a little bit on the '46 Southern Jumbo that I had in the luth's for a re-fresh. . . came out very well, but I was concerned about going too heavily into those split parallelogram inlays.

I had the divots repaired some 12 years ago. Raising the wood fiber keeps the repaired areas from sticking out like a sore thumb and reduces the potential for uneven wear and tear down the road.  It does cost a bit more than say simply filling with sawdust and glue.  No serious plane of the neck but obviously some sanding was needed.

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by zombywoof

[Chumpy36]

9 hours ago, Boyd said:

I have a real 1965 J-50 that is in pretty good shape. I followed prices for used ones for awhile, and they seemed to bottom out about a year ago but appear to have gone back up to pre-pandemic levels now. For example, there's a 1965 for $3100 at Guitar Center now. Guess it depends on how deep your pockets are and how much sentimental value to assign to the guitar, looks pretty ugly in your pictures. Don't think I'd put much into it myself.

The original tuners on mine were very stiff and I spent awhile doing all the recommended things to recondition them but still wasn't happy. WD Music Products bought the Kluson name and all of their old designs. They make very accurate looking replicas that work well, they should fit the original holes with no "plugging". Here's an example, but these are the "double line" style and I wanted "single line" to match the originals which I had to shop around to find

https://www.wdmusic.com/kluson-3-on-a-plate-supreme-series-tuning-machines-details.html

I just got a 2020 60's Original J-50 and really like it so far. But it's quite different from a real vintage J-50. The neck is  more narrow than my 2006 J-50 with a nut that is the same width as my 1965 J-50. However, it is much thicker than the real 1965 J-50, and by the time you get to the 4th fret the circumference is the same as the 2006 J-50. It has Grover replicas of the original Kluson 3-on-a-plate tuners that look good and operate well. Not sure if you can buy these separately.

I've got some money to spend and the guitar is important to me as it came from family and I want the guitar preserved for my son or anyone who can use it and appreciate it. I'd hate to scrap it. 

Thanks for the link to the Klusons, maybe those will be better than the allparts ones I tried. Not sure what single line is vs double?
 

I just picked up a 2020 60's Original J-50 LAST NIGHT! Waiting on it from a Sam Ash store in Tx. I'm surprised the neck is NARROWER than this one as it's pretty darn narrow. The nut width on mine is 1 11/16 so I guess that means it's before 65? Best guess I could get from serial number is 63. 

Thanks for the reply

[Chumpy36]

7 hours ago, J185cat said:

You can schedule a 15 minute zoom call with Gibson Repair and Restoration and they can give you opinions on the extent and cost. No obligation either.  Really nice service Gibson is offering now and yes, of course they are hoping to get more business from this, it’s a business!

This is awesome advice. Thank you

For others searching for this subject the number is at this URL 

https://www.gibson.com/Support/Repair-And-Restoration

[Chumpy36]

4 hours ago, 62burst said:

Fretboard divots are a real turnoff for me- a deep resurface of the 'board, or replacement is much preferred over filling, which almost always looks strange. Splicing in slivers externally and small cleats inside of spruce can be done for the top cracks. It might involve a slight overspray to blend, but would greatly improve their appearance. If braces need to be removed (even partially so) for that repair, the cost would jump some.  Gibson guitars have some belly to them- get your J-50 to a vintage Gibson repair shop, and see what their thoughts are.

You are now the steward of this old guitar. The repairs that it might need aren't going to be that terrible, compared to the good you would do by getting this guitar back into a better condition for it's path going forward. It won't get any cheaper in the future. Just take it to the best shop you can find, and get yourself some good guitar karma.

 

Thanks for the reply. I do plan to repair it. I just love it too much and I want to keep it in the family. I'm taking it to a couple a good luthiers around town to get some opinions and I've dropped a line to Gibson restoration as well. 

 

[Chumpy36]

1 hour ago, Leonard McCoy said:

Add a lifting bridge to your list of issues.

Are you looking at the first couple of pics? If so, that has been repaired. Thanks for the reply. 

 

[Chumpy36]

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

I had the divots repaired some 12 years ago. Raising the wood fiber keeps the repaired areas from sticking out like a sore thumb and reduces the potential for uneven wear and tear down the road.  It does cost a bit more than say simply filling with sawdust and glue.  No serious plane of the neck but obviously some sanding was needed.

 

Is it better to do a repairs like this or replace the fretboard entirely? I'm not worried about value just longevity and playability. Thanks

 

[Boyd]

54 minutes ago, Chumpy36 said:

Thanks for the link to the Klusons, maybe those will be better than the allparts ones I tried. Not sure what single line is vs double?

The single-line tuners have a stripe in the middle that says "KLUSON" written vertically, with the oil hole in the middle of the "O".  The double-line tuners have two stripes and say "KLUSON" on the left and "DELUXE" on the right. These are some indication of date, but I gather there are overlaps during the beginning and ending of a period. I originally had the single line style tuners on my 1965 J-50, but initially could only find the double-line style which I used as replacements. Then a few years later, I finally found some of the single-line reproductions and switched to them to be more historically accurate. I gather you don't know what the original tuners were on your guitar, but if it's a 1963 then this suggests they would have been the single-line variety.

https://www.kluson.com/faq.html

Regarding the neck width, read my earlier post again, I don't think you understood correctly. I stated that the neck on the 2020 1960's J-50 is narrower than my 2006 J-50. The nut is the same width as my 1965 J-50 which is 1-11/16" just like yours. Although they have the same nut width, the neck on the 2020 60's J-50 is much fatter than the real 1965 J-50. All-in-all, the guitar is much more similar to my 2006 J-50 than it is to my real 1965 J-50. Will be interested to hear your impressions, as I said, I am really enjoying mine. Here's an old thread about the 60's J-50

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Boyd

[duluthdan]

Since the first 4 frets are kind of toasty you might consider replacing them all with Evo wire or something and have the fretboard planed down or replaced as part of that task. 

[Chumpy36]

20 hours ago, Boyd said:

The single-line tuners have a stripe in the middle that says "KLUSON" written vertically, with the oil hole in the middle of the "O".  The double-line tuners have two stripes and say "KLUSON" on the left and "DELUXE" on the right. These are some indication of date, but I gather there are overlaps during the beginning and ending of a period. I originally had the single line style tuners on my 1965 J-50, but initially could only find the double-line style which I used as replacements. Then a few years later, I finally found some of the single-line reproductions and switched to them to be more historically accurate. I gather you don't know what the original tuners were on your guitar, but if it's a 1963 then this suggests they would have been the single-line variety.

https://www.kluson.com/faq.html

Regarding the neck width, read my earlier post again, I don't think you understood correctly. I stated that the neck on the 2020 1960's J-50 is narrower than my 2006 J-50. The nut is the same width as my 1965 J-50 which is 1-11/16" just like yours. Although they have the same nut width, the neck on the 2020 60's J-50 is much fatter than the real 1965 J-50. All-in-all, the guitar is much more similar to my 2006 J-50 than it is to my real 1965 J-50. Will be interested to hear your impressions, as I said, I am really enjoying mine. Here's an old thread about the 60's J-50

 

I do have the original tuners still. I'll dig them out and take a look when I get back into town. I understand now about the neck you're saying the nut width is the same but it gets fatter as. you go up the neck?

I should have the new guitar in a few days. Will let you know. Thx for the link

 

[Chumpy36]

18 hours ago, duluthdan said:

Since the first 4 frets are kind of toasty you might consider replacing them all with Evo wire or something and have the fretboard planed down or replaced as part of that task. 

I'll let you guys know what I decide to do after talking to a few guys. 

 

Thanks!

 

J