gibpicker Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 (edited) Anyone have any recommendations for finding one of these 12 fret beauties? Been looking for a 30s L-1, or a 12 fret L-00, for quite some time but there just haven't been any out there for a while (I guess there's one 12 fret L00 on Reverb right now but $9k seems a touch overpriced). Been tracking the usual suspects in Reverb, eBay and a couple forums but no luck. Just curious if there are any shops or sites that might be worth tracking in addition to these. Also been somewhat considering an L-0 from the early 30s as there are a few floating around at more reasonable prices, but I already have an all hog Martin so not sure I want/need a second all hog guitar. Kinda curious how a converted HG-00 would compare to an L-1 as well, though not sure I can handle those huge necks. Edited February 11, 2022 by gibpicker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 (edited) I have always been a lucky S.O.B. when it comes to guitars in that I rarely have had to seek them out. They find me. I got my 1932 L1 when a friend who owns a small guitar shop several states away called me one day out of the blue and told me he had gotten a 12 fret L1 in and it was mine if I wanted it. Buying one was not even on my radar but as this guy's word is as good as gold for me when it comes to guitars snagging it was a no brainer. Plus, as he wanted a guitar I owned he was fine with working out a trade which cut down on the cash I had to lay out. Anyway, while a 12 fretter can always show up at one of the big sexy vintage guitar dealers, on Reverb, a forum marketplace, or whatever, I would think you would significantly increase your chances of latching onto one by hitting one of the major guitar shows. Edited February 12, 2022 by zombywoof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 I have a 31 L-2 and a 39 HG-00. They were both out, so I took their picture in a chair. 1931 and 1939 guitars are pretty different. 31-32 are almost Martin like -- it was a transition period -- whereas the 1939 is a bit more of a blues engine. The neck on my HG-00 is only a tiny bit larger than the L-2. Best, -Tom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 (edited) Lots of luck buying an L1.... Everywhere usually but since Covid also disappeared are the Waterloo 12 fretter Wl-12. Fabulous beasts, more available that L1s. Mahogany top WL-12Mh: Various woods: BluesKing777. Edited February 12, 2022 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 Hey everyone, long time no see. This thread got me out of the shadows. a 12 fret L1 is a dream guitar for me. I found a ‘poor man’s’ version last fall and I have been more content with with this beauty than anything else I’ve had. A 1940 Kalamazoo KG12 that was converted to x bracing 10 years ago. It has a huge neck that I absolutely love. And the tone is perfect. I’ll see if I can add pics in a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMELEYE Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 BK's on the right trail. A Waterloo WL-12mh cured my need for a vintage Gibson 12 fret L. Also, it's left a lot of green on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibpicker Posted February 12, 2022 Author Share Posted February 12, 2022 Appreciate the notes, everyone! 16 hours ago, zombywoof said: I have always been a lucky S.O.B. when it comes to guitars in that I rarely have had to seek them out. They find me. I got my 1932 L1 when a friend who owns a small guitar shop several states away called me one day out of the blue and told me he had gotten a 12 fret L1 in and it was mine if I wanted it. Buying one was not even on my radar but as this guy's word is as good as gold for me when it comes to guitars snagging it was a no brainer. Plus, as he wanted a guitar I owned he was fine with working out a trade which cut down on the cash I had to lay out. Anyway, while a 12 fretter can always show up at one of the big sexy vintage guitar dealers, on Reverb, a forum marketplace, or whatever, I would think you would significantly increase your chances of latching onto one by hitting one of the major guitar shows. Please pass some of that "lucky SOB" along to me! Good call on hitting the guitar shows, I've never been to one but maybe it's time to try one or two out. 16 hours ago, tpbiii said: I have a 31 L-2 and a 39 HG-00. They were both out, so I took their picture in a chair. 1931 and 1939 guitars are pretty different. 31-32 are almost Martin like -- it was a transition period -- whereas the 1939 is a bit more of a blues engine. The neck on my HG-00 is only a tiny bit larger than the L-2. Best, -Tom Beautiful guitars, and very helpful hearing from someone with an HG-00 and an L. 15 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: Lots of luck buying an L1.... Everywhere usually but since Covid also disappeared are the Waterloo 12 fretter Wl-12. Fabulous beasts, more available that L1s. Mahogany top WL-12Mh: Various woods: BluesKing777. Yeah, I owned a Waterloo WL-14X for a bit but it just didn't scratch the itch. Great guitar, but left me wanting more. 3 hours ago, CJB said: Hey everyone, long time no see. This thread got me out of the shadows. a 12 fret L1 is a dream guitar for me. I found a ‘poor man’s’ version last fall and I have been more content with with this beauty than anything else I’ve had. A 1940 Kalamazoo KG12 that was converted to x bracing 10 years ago. It has a huge neck that I absolutely love. And the tone is perfect. I’ll see if I can add pics in a bit. This is something I've been considering, there are a few 12 fret Kzoo's floating around right now, so I could pick one up and ship it off to Baxendale or someone else to convert it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 3 hours ago, CAMELEYE said: BK's on the right trail. A Waterloo WL-12mh cured my need for a vintage Gibson 12 fret L. Also, it's left a lot of green on the table. I play my ladder WL-14L and x braced WL-14X all the time! Wouldn't mind a 14 fret Mh mahogany top to go with it, prefer 14 frets but if a 12 sticks its head up.........hmmm......slim on the ground since Covid. I saw your 'wanted' ad, Cameleye! I thought that would never work..Ha..... and it did! BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMELEYE Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Yes, BK, it did. Got it from the Left Coast. Shortly after which I had two folks PM me with their WL-12Mh offers. So, I'd say they're out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 The 12 fret WL-12 are very tempting and like the way I’d go when it’s time for a all mahogany guitar. Mine was converted by David Sheppard of Mt Airy, NC. I’d ask him to do it if you find one. No doubt Baxendale would do a great job but I like the way David did mine. You can’t tell anything was done, until you play it. I played a friend’s ‘38 HG-00 extensively and it is an entire pound heavier than mine and it was stiff sounding. The bracing was huge and the top was much thicker than a ‘38 L00 I had at the time. I also encourage going to a guitar show - that’s where I found mine (in Asheville) and there were several old and various Kalamazoo’s, etc. to compare. They were all light and lively in their own way. They always say to try as many of these old ones as possible and I’ve learned they were right. They also said to grab ‘the one’ when you find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 4 hours ago, CAMELEYE said: Yes, BK, it did. Got it from the Left Coast. Shortly after which I had two folks PM me with their WL-12Mh offers. So, I'd say they're out there. And you are liking it? That model has the slimmer neck than my WL-14 models, doesn’t it? One day I will grab a WL-14Mh all mahogany if one goes past, full V neck and no mail order brides for me again! Play it live for 5 seconds and I know....... Meanwhile the 2 hardtop projects I bought new are coming to fruition a bit - a 15 series Martin OMC-15ME is about 8 or 9 months old and really starting to open out. My Maton with all Aust blackwood is 6 months and opening out as well. Both guitars were very stiff new. I bought them after failing to find the mahogany top Waterloo anywhere here. So then a month ago, some local yokel put on consign their really beautiful looking Martin mahogany top 12 fret Custom Shop.............Phew! It HAS been calling me, but I am going to put new strings on my OMC -15 ME and play that! I also have my 44 Martin 0-17, wonderful, wonderful but a tad little and a National mahogany top M-14. I do like my mahogany tops! BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, CJB said: The 12 fret WL-12 are very tempting and like the way I’d go when it’s time for a all mahogany guitar. Mine was converted by David Sheppard of Mt Airy, NC. I’d ask him to do it if you find one. No doubt Baxendale would do a great job but I like the way David did mine. You can’t tell anything was done, until you play it. I played a friend’s ‘38 HG-00 extensively and it is an entire pound heavier than mine and it was stiff sounding. The bracing was huge and the top was much thicker than a ‘38 L00 I had at the time. I also encourage going to a guitar show - that’s where I found mine (in Asheville) and there were several old and various Kalamazoo’s, etc. to compare. They were all light and lively in their own way. They always say to try as many of these old ones as possible and I’ve learned they were right. They also said to grab ‘the one’ when you find it. There are more than a few out there doing X brace conversions. Baxendale if because of nothing else other than his association with Mossman guitars though has the reputation. The thing which sets particularly the 1930-33 L guitars apart is their scary light build. They generally clock in at somewhere around 2 3/4 pounds. While I have had the opportunity to play a couple of Waterloos (I did prefer the ladder braced version) If I was going to look for something other than an original L1 I would first go check out the Waterloo take on the Kel Kroyden. Even though Collings installs a truss rod in their version these guitars are apparently built so light that they come with a warning to string with nothing heavier than 11 gauge. I have not seen that kind of a warning issued with a guitar since the old Harmony 12 strings. Other than that, I might just seek out a used Fairbanks F10. These are interesting in that Dale combined the earlier 1920s L1 body shape with the non-scalloped bracing Gibson used in the 1930s. For me this is one of those guitars which while never was ought to have been. Edited February 13, 2022 by zombywoof 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 (edited) A Fairbanks used would be about 3 times the price of a Waterloo used, wouldn't it? I, myself, want to play at least 12s or 13s, so the Kel copy wearing 11s max is out.... No, Bill Collings hit the nail with my Waterloo WL-14 ladder braced....sound, playability, build quality, intonation...etc - I played it most of yesterday's playing - sounds older than my old ones!!!! So that is what I am getting at - it is great to have some vintage guitars but since Bill invented his range of Waterloo with nice, dry old sounds, you don't HAVE to buy vintage to have a great old sound. BluesKing777. Edited February 13, 2022 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibpicker Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 39 minutes ago, BluesKing777 said: A Fairbanks used would be about 3 times the price of a Waterloo used, wouldn't it? I, myself, want to play at least 12s or 13s, so the Kel copy wearing 11s max is out.... No, Bill Collings hit the nail with my Waterloo WL-14 ladder braced....sound, playability, build quality, intonation...etc - I played it most of yesterday's playing - sounds older than my old ones!!!! So that is what I am getting at - it is great to have some vintage guitars but since Bill invented his range of Waterloo with nice, dry old sounds, you don't HAVE to buy vintage to have a great old sound. BluesKing777. Fairbanks go for around $6k new usually, probably closer to $5k used... meanwhile Waterloos are starting to get pretty pricey, I think the WL's are close to $3k new now while the WL-K, WL-S, etc are starting to get well over $3k. So don't think the price disparity is quite that dramatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 2 hours ago, gibpicker said: Fairbanks go for around $6k new usually, probably closer to $5k used... meanwhile Waterloos are starting to get pretty pricey, I think the WL's are close to $3k new now while the WL-K, WL-S, etc are starting to get well over $3k. So don't think the price disparity is quite that dramatic. A used Fairbanks F10 or say F30 Smeck (which is what I own) generally will go in the $3650 to $3850 range. Or at least they did as of two or three years ago. When you get into others such as the Super Smeck or SJ Kalamazoo Gal you can add a few grand to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 Isn't the (Fairbanks) F20 the L1 copy? F10 is the L-0 copy, isn't it? And cheaper than the F20. And do they have the old dry sound the Waterloo ladder braced WL-14L gets? Or the wet sound of the newer Gibsons? Chances of seeing any here where I live are slim, and that goes for all guitar mentioned so far, including Waterloo models at the moment.... BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: Isn't the (Fairbanks) F20 the L1 copy? F10 is the L-0 copy, isn't it? And cheaper than the F20. And do they have the old dry sound the Waterloo ladder braced WL-14L gets? Or the wet sound of the newer Gibsons? Chances of seeing any here where I live are slim, and that goes for all guitar mentioned so far, including Waterloo models at the moment.... BluesKing777. I remember when the Waterloos first came out, I tried to get my hands on one over at Mass Street Music. Every one of them was sold before it ever hit the shelves. It was something over a year before I got a chance to play one. My Fairbanks certainly has a sweet dry tone. While I do not have enough time under my belt playing guitars with nuked tops to speak to them, no guitar with a regular top though is going to have that same parched dryness or hair trigger response an 80 odd year-old instrument has. The F20 is the Fairbanks take on the Nick Lucas. And no argument that a Fairbanks is not an easy guitar to get your hands on to take it for a test drive. Dale turns out maybe 50 guitars a year. So, when I bought mine it was a leap of faith. While I could not be happier with the Fairbanks, I would not rule out a Waterloo joining the gang. I am leaning towards a WL-S Deluxe. I came within a hair of buying one I ran across used from the first run. Still second guessing myself on that one. Edited February 14, 2022 by zombywoof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMELEYE Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 BK, my WL-12Mh has a fairly hefty neck. Slimmer than the 14 fretters, I really don't think so. I've had three other Waterloos and the neck on this one feels large, but not huge. (Hard to describe without using numbers.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 4 hours ago, CAMELEYE said: BK, my WL-12Mh has a fairly hefty neck. Slimmer than the 14 fretters, I really don't think so. I've had three other Waterloos and the neck on this one feels large, but not huge. (Hard to describe without using numbers.) The original large V necks on both my Wl-14s are beautiful things! Chunky V neck, 1 3/4" nut, 2 3/8" bridge spacing - ding! Ring my bell! (And I think Bill copied the neck on my 1935 Gibson L50!) Modern guitar makers, except Bill, have shied away from a nice V neck. BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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