Historic Series: 1942 Banner J-45 vs 1936 J-35

[Tim Tim]

Hi all,

I’m really curious about the tonal differences between the Historic collection Banner J-45 and the 1936 J-35.  I know they say the J-35 advanced x bracing is louder and bassier, but I haven’t found any other good comparison clips that demonstrate that.  
 

Also, the Gibson site is pretty poor about listing all the specs.  Are the body depths (at heel and tail) the same, or is the 35 shallower or otherwise different somehow?  
 

Any help understanding the sound difference between the two would be hugely appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Tim

[Sgt. Pepper]

The J-35 shape is Advance Jumbo vs the J-45 which the shape called J-45.

The J-35 bracing is Traditional hand-scalloped Advanced X-bracing, red spruce braces with hide glue vs the J-45 which the bracing is Traditional hand-scalloped X-bracing, red spruce braces with hide glue.

So that must be the rub.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[tpbiii]

Being geeky, the 1936 J-35 had the same body shape as the 34-36 Jumbo.  It switched to the AJ shape in 1937.  Also, the J-45 and the AJ have the same body shape.  I am talking about vintage guitars here.

 

Best,

-Tom

[zombywoof]

For me, trying to describe sound has always been like trying to nail jello to a wall,  I have, however, always been under the impression that Bozeman relies on the AJ body platform for all their slope shoulder jumbos.  Then again, I am too lazy to go look up body specs,   But while I do not know what bracing footprint (the wider angle AJ style or the Standard layout) they went with in these models, I think the biggest difference would be the nut width.  The J35 sports the wider Luthier's Choice 1.77" nut and the J45 the standard Bozeman 1.725" nut,  Bottom line though you will not know the answer to your question until you have played them.

[zombywoof]

2 hours ago, tpbiii said:

Being geeky, the 1936 J-35 had the same body shape as the 34-36 Jumbo.  It switched to the AJ shape in 1937.  Also, the J-45 and the AJ have the same body shape.  I am talking about vintage guitars here.

 

Best,

-Tom

I always thought it was the Trojan which had the less tapered body like the Jumbo?  Then again, my "relationship" with both the Trojan and Jumbo have been fleeting at best.  Trying to get a handle on Trojans and early-J35s based on FONs can become a "Who's on First" routine for those of us who are unwashed when it comes to these gems.

Edited September 9, 2022 by zombywoof

[tpbiii]

I don't know if you are talking modern copies, but I have demos of the actual vintage stuff you mention.

BTW, most of what people call 42 J-45 are actually (based on modern research) actuall early 1943 J-45s.

J-35

J-45

 

The J-35s are notably more powerful than the J-45s.  Looking at the bracing, you might not guess that.  John Arnold -- the iconic luthier -- say that is because of the taper on the J-45 braces.  I would not guess that, but John is a tre expert.

Lets pick,

-Tom

Edited September 9, 2022 by tpbiii

[Lars68]

I have played modern versions of both AJ and J-45 and the best way I can describe the tonal differences would be this. Put a scalloped Martin D-28 on one end of a tonal spectrum, then put the J-45 at the other end. The AJ to my ears falls somewhere in between, with the biggest source of variance between the two being rosewood vs mahogany and long scale vs short scale.

Lars

[Sgt. Pepper]

28 minutes ago, Lars68 said:

I have played modern versions of both AJ and J-45 and the best way I can describe the tonal differences would be this. Put a scalloped Martin D-28 on one end of a tonal spectrum, then put the J-45 at the other end. The AJ to my ears falls somewhere in between, with the biggest source of variance between the two being rosewood vs mahogany and long scale vs short scale.

Lars

D-28’s don’t have scalloped bracing. 

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, tpbiii said:

I don't know if you are talking modern copies, but I have demos of the actual vintage stuff you mention.

BTW, most of what people call 42 J-45 are actually (based on modern research) actuall early 1943 J-45s.

J-35

J-45

 

The J-35s are notably more powerful than the J-45s.  Looking at the bracing, you might not guess that.  John Arnold -- the iconic luthier -- say that is because of the taper on the J-45 braces.  I would not guess that, but John is a tre expert.

Lets pick,

-Tom

We are talking current production Gibsons so guitars from past catalogs are a different ballgame.  But I do appreciate the demos and info.

[Lars68]

55 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

D-28’s don’t have scalloped bracing. 

My D-28 had scalloped bracing the last time I checked 😀

The current Modern Deluxe series, the current Authentic Series, as well as the recently discontinued Vintage Series and the Marquis/Golden Era Series all have scalloped bracing. And lets not forget all vintage D-28 before the mid 1940’s.

There have been many examples of scalloped D-28 in recent years, that are not of the super expensive or rare kind, like the HD-28 and HD-28V.

https://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/modern-deluxe-series/D-28-Modern-Deluxe.html?cgid=md-series-guitars

Lars

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Lars68

[tpbiii]

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

I always thought it was the Trojan which had the less tapered body like the Jumbo?  Then again, my "relationship" with both the Trojan and Jumbo have been fleeting at best.  Trying to get a handle on Trojans and early-35s based on FONs can become a "Who's on First" routine for those of us who are unwashed when it comes to these gems.

That is correct. 

36 J-35, 43 SJ, 36 AJ

Best,

-Tom

[Sgt. Pepper]

14 minutes ago, Lars68 said:

My D-28 had scalloped bracing the last time I checked 😀

The current Modern Deluxe series, the current Authentic Series, as well as the recently discontinued Vintage Series and the Marquis/Golden Era Series all have scalloped bracing. And lets not forget all vintage D-28 before the mid 1940’s.

There have been many examples of scalloped D-28 in recent years, that are not of the super expensive or rare kind, like the HD-28 and HD-28V.

https://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/modern-deluxe-series/D-28-Modern-Deluxe.html?cgid=md-series-guitars

Lars

 

That is a lot of other D-28’s. Those are all different beasts.

What model you got? My standard had none. My HD-28V, yes it did, but it’s a HD and V too. All those will be totally different than the Std.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[Tim Tim]

10 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

The J-35 shape is Advance Jumbo vs the J-45 which the shape called J-45.

 

I thought the shapes looked slightly different but always thought they were the same.  Help me understand the body difference.  Is the j45 body deeper than the 35?  35 upper bout looks maybe a bit more narrow, or is it that the lower bout is wider?

[tpbiii]

1 hour ago, Tim Tim said:

I thought the shapes looked slightly different but always thought they were the same.  Help me understand the body difference.  Is the j45 body deeper than the 35?  35 upper bout looks maybe a bit more narrow, or is it that the lower bout is wider?

The J-35 after c.1936, the AJ, and all the other Js (J-45, J=50, SJ, J-55, ...) have the same body shape.  Just the shape -- there are many differences of course.  The 1936 J-35 had the deeper body.

Best,

-Tom

[zombywoof]

Again though, this Historic  line was not designed to be reproductions of guitars from past catalogs,  So, what structural the originals had does not really come into play, What you will get appears to be whatever Bozeman is going with on their standard current production guitars.  So, if the body specs are different on production J35 or J45 that is what you will get with the Historic Line.

I am not saying this is a good or bad thing or that Bozeman is not producing some amazing sounding instruments.  But while they have turned out instruments which were as close as you were going to get to a dead bang copy of a guitar from a past catalog it appears that by and large they have abdicated the building of period correct guitars to folks like Fairbanks.  

If I were buying one of these guitars sight unseen and relying on specs to help me choose one, I would probably opt for the '34 Jumbo because of the neck carve alone.  But I like 'em fat with a depth at the 1st fret somewhere in the 1.0" range. My second choice would be the J35 again because of the wider nut.  Obviously not the best way to pick a guitar but that is again assuming I could not find any.  Luckily, I have Sweetwater maybe 4 hours down the road.  Now I just would need the urge to go try them out,  And that I do not have as I have not had any interest in acquiring guitars in several years.  You might just as well hang an R.I.P sign on GAS,.

[Tim Tim]

So it seems clear that the current "Historic Collection" guitars are not very closely based off the original vintage examples.  

 

When comparing the modern examples—specifically the Historic collection J-45 1942 and J-35 1936, I'm still wondering the exact body and bracing differences.  

 

So far, it seems clear the J35 has advanced x bracing and a wider neck, and the J45 has standard x bracing and the narrower nut.  

 

Questions remain about body shape and depth. 

 

Do these two guitars have the same body shape, or are they different.  Here are photos of the tops and body depths from Gibson and Sweetwater.  The body depth (profile) looks the same to me (especially compared to deeper Jumbo, last image for reference), but the contours, especially upper bout and waste, seem different, no?:

Edited September 11, 2022 by Tim Tim

[Tim Tim]

Nevermind, upload data limits apparently won't allow a few small photos.  Bummer. 

 

Anyone measure these or can comment on whether bodies are the same size or different? 

[Tim Tim]

On 9/9/2022 at 11:43 AM, Sgt. Pepper said:

The J-35 shape is Advance Jumbo vs the J-45 which the shape called J-45.

I somehow missed this statement.  So the shapes ARE different?  Do you know HOW exactly, or how it affects sound?  AJ upper bout and waits look maybe a tiny bit narrower.  Low bout wider too?  Not sure on depth…

[Sgt. Pepper]

2 hours ago, Tim Tim said:

I somehow missed this statement.  So the shapes ARE different?  Do you know HOW exactly, or how it affects sound?  AJ upper bout and waits look maybe a tiny bit narrower.  Low bout wider too?  Not sure on depth…

There must be something different about them, or they would be the same guitar, and not need different designations.

[Tim Tim]

3 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

There must be something different about them, or they would be the same guitar, and not need different designations.

Nut width and bracing pattern and aesthetics are definitely different.  Not sure about body.

[slimt]

21 hours ago, Tim Tim said:

So it seems clear that the current "Historic Collection" guitars are not very closely based off the original vintage examples.  

 

When comparing the modern examples—specifically the Historic collection J-45 1942 and J-35 1936, I'm still wondering the exact body and bracing differences.  

 

So far, it seems clear the J35 has advanced x bracing and a wider neck, and the J45 has standard x bracing and the narrower nut.  

 

Questions remain about body shape and depth. 

 

Do these two guitars have the same body shape, or are they different.  Here are photos of the tops and body depths from Gibson and Sweetwater.  The body depth (profile) looks the same to me (especially compared to deeper Jumbo, last image for reference), but the contours, especially upper bout and waste, seem different, no?:

 

None of the historic models are the same as the originals.    
 

 

[Tim Tim]

3 minutes ago, slimt said:

None of the historic models are the same as the originals.    
 

 

We agree on that.  I’m looking for spec and tone comparison on the two modern versions above…

[Sgt. Pepper]

10 minutes ago, Tim Tim said:

We agree on that.  I’m looking for spec and tone comparison on the two modern versions above…

You can find the specs, but tone you have to hear in person. There may be a YT video of the two. 

[Tim Tim]

I know about YouTube.  Thanks.

[Sgt. Pepper]

5 minutes ago, Tim Tim said:

I know about YouTube.  Thanks.

Great, most do. But other than hearing it, how does one describe a guitars tone accurately. Its like tying to describe what a tree looks like to someone who has been blind from birth.