1991 Nick Lucas mystery

[goodnightaustin]

This Nick Lucas came to me after a relative passed away. Original purchaser was a family friend, I'm also in possession of OHSC and Bill of Sale, so provenance is relatively certain. Maple back and sides. By all accounts, this series was one hundred instruments, all signed by Ren Ferguson. This one lacks the special numbered Nick Lucas sticker, and Ren Ferguson's signature. Found a label image online that has an adjacent serial number, with Nick Lucas label and Ferguson signature. (image attached). What have I got here?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Do 2 guitar 1 serial apart have to be the exact same make and model? I would saw due to what you have no.

[zombywoof]

 Back in the day, Gibson assigned an FON to a guitar which followed it through the entire build process.   Assuming Bozeman was still going that route, generic Gibson labels could have been printed up before the guitars were ever built with a 100- guitar range blocked off and the labels signed by Ren in advance.  So, while other guitars were likely built at the same time as the NL's, the serial numbers on that run could have been sequential.  Then again, I could be on puppy chow.

Why the label on yours is not signed I do not have a clue.  Perhaps they were initially planning on a smaller run so ran shy of signed labels when they went over that number.  As it is, based on what I could find in old posts on this forum, Gibson apparently produced more than 100 instruments '91 with the overrun likely being sold as part of a '92 run.   While a signed label is nice it only means that Ren had a hand in the build but not a hands-on role.  I do believe though there were a small number of '92 rosewood body guitars which were built and signed by John Walker who was running the Gibson CS.

[PrairieDog]

Probably made in the same run, but the limited version made next got some feature your model doesn’t.  If you haven’t yet, you might try calling Gibson and asking about the two serial nos and what the difference was. They were able to give me some details on my limited guitar since at the time I picked it up I had no idea what “limited” meant in the Gibson universe, chuckle.  

[Sgt. Pepper]

13 minutes ago, PrairieDog said:

Probably made in the same run, but the limited version made next got some feature your model doesn’t.  If you haven’t yet, you might try calling Gibson and asking about the two serial nos and what the difference was. They were able to give me some details on my limited guitar since at the time I picked it up I had no idea what “limited” meant in the Gibson universe, chuckle.  

Here is the thing about Gibson, we all know historically they keep awful records of what they make. Who at Gibson is still there from the 1991-2? 1, 2 , 3 maybe 0 employees? Didn't Ren move on to Guild years ago and now is making stuff under his own name? Is he supposed to remember a batch of labels he signed over 30 years ago. Remember what you had for dinner 30 years ago?

Edited July 31, 2023 by Sgt. Pepper

[gearbasher]

This is apples and oranges, but I have a J-45 LTD edition guitar. I've posted about this before. There was a run of 40 of these. Mine had some different features than the examples I found on-line. I found 5 of them on-line and their serial #'s bracketed mine. One of the #s  was two digits off. I asked Gibson why mine had different features and I was told it wasn't part of that run, but was one made for a dealer.

This is part of their response to me:

 "There were small runs of these made in the mid 2000's for dealers with Rosewood fretboards and bridges instead of the Ebony model that was limited to 40. These were not limited to any specific number."

[Sgt. Pepper]

3 minutes ago, gearbasher said:

This is apples and oranges, but I have a J-45 LTD edition guitar. I've posted about this before. There was a run of 40 of these. Mine had some different features than the examples I found on-line. I found 5 of them on-line and their serial #'s bracketed mine. One of the #s  was two digits off. I asked Gibson why mine had different features and I was told it wasn't part of that run, but was one made for a dealer.

This is part of their response to me:

 "There were small runs of these made in the mid 2000's for dealers with Rosewood fretboards and bridges instead of the Ebony model that was limited to 40. These were not limited to any specific number."

Makes total sense. A serial number is just a number. If it is consecutive it may mean something, or not and it looks like we just found any guitar made the same day stamped one away can be a different model. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Sgt. Pepper

[PrairieDog]

12 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

Here is the thing about Gibson, we all know historically they keep awful records of what they make. Who at Gibson is still there from the 1991-2? 1, 2 , 3 maybe 0 employees? Didn't Ren move on to Guild years ago and now is making stuff under his own name? Is he supposed to remember a batch of labels he signed over 30 years ago. Remember what you had for dinner 30 years ago?

 

12 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

Makes total sense. A serial number is just a number. If it is consecutive it may mean something, or not and it looks like we just found any guitar made the same day stamped one away can be a different model. 

That is all I was saying.  Re the records, yeah  they are sketchy, but there sometimes is some info.  Inventory records are kept by the company, not the builders.  When I called about my DIF, and while they  didn’t have the whole build, he could see at least one reason it was “limited” was the Autumn Burst, and that it was sent to Sam Ash in LA.  At least it was something for someone who knew diddly about the guitar when I bought it.  

Oh, and conch salad, grilled lobster, banana’s foster, and a piña colada, chuckle.  (No, not an eidetic memory, just got lucky. 30 years ago we were working on a tropical island, and today happened to be a special day back then).

[slimt]

I bet the person getting the labels ready. Messed up.    Kind of weird seeing one number apart. But not surprising. 

[Sgt. Pepper]

9 hours ago, PrairieDog said:

Oh, and conch salad, grilled lobster, banana’s foster, and a piña colada, chuckle.  (No, not an eidetic memory, just got lucky. 30 years ago we were working on a tropical island, and today happened to be a special day back then).

I probably had a hot dog and mac n cheese. You lived like a king.

[PrairieDog]

6 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

I probably had a hot dog and mac n cheese. You lived like a king.

You would think, but actually dirt poor grad students.  As long as one stayed away from the resort for the rich and famous (royalty did stay there) seafood was a staple on the island so really good food was actually pretty affordable.  Plus, as folks got to know us we usually were given the local discount on top of it. We were very fortunate.  Still miss conch fritters.  

[zombywoof]

9 hours ago, PrairieDog said:

Oh, and conch salad, grilled lobster, banana’s foster, and a piña colada, chuckle.  (No, not an eidetic memory, just got lucky. 30 years ago we were working on a tropical island, and today happened to be a special day back then).

During the early-1970s I worked on an environmental impact study involving the effect of thermal pollution on what crawled or swam beneath the surface. Surface and bottom trawls, beach seines, tagging and chasing the critters, and what have you.   Since those days I have pretty much lost interest in seafood.  I will stick with coney dogs which conjure up more pleasant memories of hitting Nathans in Brooklyn with my Dad.

Edited August 1, 2023 by zombywoof

[Sgt. Pepper]

18 minutes ago, PrairieDog said:

You would think, but actually dirt poor grad students.  As long as one stayed away from the resort for the rich and famous (royalty did stay there) seafood was a staple on the island so really good food was actually pretty affordable.  Plus, as folks got to know us we usually were given the local discount on top of it. We were very fortunate.  Still miss conch fritters.  

I used to eat conch fritters any where I could get them. Mostly in Key West when I went there to fix boats. 

What Island were or are you on?

[fortyearspickn]

I've got a J-45 Custom Shop.  Limited. Run of 50 I think. Bought new from Rainbow Guitars in Tucson  5 + years ago.     Spec sheet  says  Koa b/s,  Sunset Burst and Rosewood fretboard & bridge.  Although the bridge is rw - the fretboard is ebony.     I embrace the diversity of all Gibson acoustics, fully understanding the difficulty of putting together a myriad of different models in a fast paced town like Bozeman, which is adjacent to the John Dutton Yellowstone Ranch and Train Station.  

"A rose, by any other name..."   The guitar stands on it's own merits - the paperwork is irrelevant.  Close your eyes and imagine you had lost all the labels, serial numbers (did you get the checklist/spec sheet?)   and strum the guitar.   Now open your eyes with the papers in front of you. Strum it again.  

[PrairieDog]

40 minutes ago, zombywoof said:

During the early-1970s I worked on an environmental impact study involving the effect of thermal pollution on what crawled or swam beneath the surface. Surface and bottom trawls, beach seines, tagging and chasing the critters, and what have you.   Since those days I have pretty much lost interest in seafood.  I will stick with coney dogs which conjure up more pleasant memories of hitting Nathans in Brooklyn with my Dad.

I’m sure that was probably disheartening work.  I hear you about losing interest when we learn enough. While I say I miss conch, I doubt I would ever eat it again knowing what I do now about it’s life cycle, plus overfishing, the reefs, and all the terrible challenges the ocean is facing.  Living in the middle of the continent, I start hyperventilating over how many seafood cases there are in grocery stores, every day, and how many Red Lobsters dishing up crab and lobster like hamburgers, nowhere near big water.  Don’t even get me started on the hundreds of “decorative” dead octopus gracing fish cases.  

I’ve kinda come to the conclusion there is no good reason why folks in flyover land should have unlimited access to seafood, rueful smile.  

Also, I can’t swim in the ocean anymore after a snorkeling trip back then and seeing how many thousands of critters  are swimming around down there, even right near the beaches, chuckle. 

Sorry, guess I kinda went off topic. Um, here, to get it back to guitars, this is all to say, “you can tune a guitar, but you can’t tune a fish”  😆

Edited August 1, 2023 by PrairieDog

[PrairieDog]

37 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

I used to eat conch fritters any where I could get them. Mostly in Key West when I went there to fix boats. 

What Island were or are you on?

A tiny bump in the outer Leewards, Nevis, most folks only hear about it from the hurricane tracks. 

[Sgt. Pepper]

28 minutes ago, PrairieDog said:

A tiny bump in the outer Leewards, Nevis, most folks only hear about it from the hurricane tracks. 

I went to St. Kitts once. I lived in Puerto Rico for 2 years, and went to so many of the Island in the Caribbean I lost count.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Sgt. Pepper

[PrairieDog]

2 hours ago, fortyearspickn said:

"A rose, by any other name..."   The guitar stands on it's own merits - the paperwork is irrelevant.  Close your eyes and imagine you had lost all the labels, serial numbers (did you get the checklist/spec sheet?)   and strum the guitar.   Now open your eyes with the papers in front of you. Strum it again.  

This is true.   Blind testing can yield amazing results.  We were generally clueless about the range of acoustic guitars beyond the makers names. 

I literally stumbled into Gibson just a few months ago while ostensibly shopping for a guitar for my spouse who wants to learn. I hadn’t played for 50 years, and that was on an entry level Yamaha classical that I subdued into working for me.

We played nearly every freaking thing hanging in the general production room at GC (I know, the evil empire, but we were starting out and we wanted to try as many things as we could). We were thinking we were getting a decent starter for the learner, and maybe something new for me.  Some were decent enough, but nothing was really right.  

My dear practical beloved kept insisting they didn’t want to spend much since they were just starting. I knew from all my musical training that an instrument that “fits” and you love makes learning much more productive.  

So, just to compare, I had the kid start unlocking holders  in the small room where the better level/American instruments were.  We went through the new Martins, to both our ears too muddy, but the Taylors started to come alive. They were too bright for my taste, but spouse could tell how different they were from the entry levels they were trying, but insisted they were too expensive for a newbie. I could not convince it would be okay and worth it if they liked it.    

To make sure we covered all the bases, I had the kid unlock the case where the only Gibson was living.  The first strum stopped the room.  We looked at each other wide-eyed, and I knew that was the one I wanted.  Other than I knew Gibson was the top name in electrics, I had no idea about their acoustic line or where this model fit in.  I talked the GC kid down a bit and came home with what turned out to be a J 45 walnut Studio.  A whole bunch of belated research I was pretty tickled with my choice and the price.

A few days later on a visit back to GC to pick up some strings for my old Yamaha there was a new Taylor GT with a fuller tone,  marked down half price with  case because it didn’t have the electronics of the new model.  So, a  similar  moment for spouse.  No idea what it was, but  just loved the tone and playability.  AND it wasn’t much more than the Breedlove they just returned because of issues we didn’t recognize until we got it home.  Everybody was happy.  

On the flip side, during my crash course Gibson research I came across the Doves in Flight.   I honestly liked it just because we are birders and I thought it would be cool to have a guitar with birds on it, eyeroll.  I figured it would be a fun “someday” dream, especially since none were in stock or out in the wild that I could find or trust.  

But suddenly one popped up across the country in a right-timed google. Again, naive and clueless, other than some YouTubers saying it played nice, I figured the big mark up over a regular Dove was just for the bling.  But I was cool with that since it was so pretty, and birds, chuckle. I didn’t even recognize this one had a special finish.  The  below retail price was manageable, so I impulsively bit figuring that might be my only chance.  

I had no idea about the extremely respectable Vintage vendor I bought it from, so I grilled him like he was a fence at an after hours pawnshop to make sure I wasn’t buying something from a dark alley, lol.  I even called Gibson to verify the serial number.  Poor patient dude was a class act the whole time.  I know much better now, thank you.  

Anyway, it gets here, and I can’t describe the experience of those first licks.  I thought my J 45 was amazing.  The DIF plays like butter and sounds like angels.  It really is an exceptional instrument beyond all the gussying up,  

Before this whole experience, I had no idea how different acoustic guitars could  be.   

So yeah, I’ll say going in with no expectations or preconceptions is the best way to find “the one.” 

Edited August 1, 2023 by PrairieDog

[zombywoof]

6 hours ago, PrairieDog said:

This is true.   Blind testing can yield amazing results.  We were generally clueless about the range of acoustic guitars beyond the makers names. 

I literally stumbled into Gibson just a few months ago while ostensibly shopping for a guitar for my spouse who wants to learn. I hadn’t played for 50 years, and that was on an entry level Yamaha classical that I subdued into working for me.

 

 

 

My favorite guitars popped up just about on my doorstep when I was not even thinking about buying anything never mind a guitar with a specific moniker on the headstock.  Always figured I could not have found them no matter how diligently I looked but I had to wait for them to find me.  Kind of these were meant to be guitars.  Not saying the Lazy Man strategy of buying works out for everyone as certain guitars remained elusive.  But given those which have come to live with me, I feel I have been one lucky S.O.B.