HoboTux Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 (edited) Hi all. I have a line to a purported 1970 Hummingbird and I'm doing my homework to try and verify if it's a fake or not. It's a trusted seller who bought it years back (on eBay) from a known performer (down South). It's openly offered as a very player-grade guitar that's had a neck reset, back crack repaired and a bridge that is splitting which will need some love soon. I've seen and heard it played and it sounds fantastic. I'm not worried about a beat-up old 'bird that may need some attention over time. But I just don't want a beat up old fake 'bird. 1. There's no serial number, so that gives me pause. Though it could fall in a window where they were stickered on. 2. There's a 2-hole TRC, which is good. 3. The headstock logo seems a touch 'spaghetti' to my eyes. A bit long and lean at the ends of the 'S.' Though, the whole logo is parallel with the neck and not slanted. 4. Some of the font(s) in the soundhole sticker ('Guarantee')seem a little thin to others that I've seen online. And some of the alignment seems a bit off ('Model' and 'Union Made' seem too far to the right) I could compare 500 more photos online but I'll still be making judgement calls. This is very much my first rodeo with Hummingbirds as I look to invest in my first one. Thank you in advance for any insight or clues you may be able to throw my way. I'm not under any pretenses or emotionally tied to this thing. Just trying to be smart and reasonable. Photo Album / has better resolution than the pics below: https://ibb.co/album/fdP155 Edited June 7 by HoboTux made photos smaller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboTux Posted June 7 Author Share Posted June 7 (edited) Edited June 7 by HoboTux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboTux Posted June 7 Author Share Posted June 7 (edited) https://ibb.co/zswjxGw (higher-resolution link) Edited June 7 by HoboTux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G Man Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 Looks legit to me, is there a serial number on the neck block by any chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboTux Posted June 7 Author Share Posted June 7 (edited) Thanks GMan. I don't think there is, but I've asked back. The seller is a serious player who did his homework as much as possible. I'm sure he would have offered that up as provenance in both listings and when we've discussed the guitar. Edited June 7 by HoboTux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 That year may of had the oval decal on the back of the headstock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 7 hours ago, slimt said: That year may of had the oval decal on the back of the headstock. I have always read/heard that the decal serial numbers dated to the mid-1970s. Then again, I have spent very little time with Kalamazoo Gibsons made this late in the game. But as 1970 was the first full year Gibson was under Norlin ownership who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboTux Posted June 8 Author Share Posted June 8 I've read the same about this window and decals. I think right now my biggest perplex is the headstock logo. I'm not sure how much variance there was in terms of the letter shaping and where the dot is floating over the "i" I haven't been able to find another photo of one that looks similar to this one. I could be totally splitting hairs about this too. I'm not sure.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 53 minutes ago, HoboTux said: I've read the same about this window and decals. I think right now my biggest perplex is the headstock logo. I'm not sure how much variance there was in terms of the letter shaping and where the dot is floating over the "i" I haven't been able to find another photo of one that looks similar to this one. I could be totally splitting hairs about this too. I'm not sure.. With mid 70s or Norlin gibsons. They have many things. That dont make much sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 To be honest. I do think that the Hummingbird was the best guitar out of the lot . In the 1970s and 80s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearbasher Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 (edited) 6 hours ago, HoboTux said: I've read the same about this window and decals. I think right now my biggest perplex is the headstock logo. I'm not sure how much variance there was in terms of the letter shaping and where the dot is floating over the "i" I haven't been able to find another photo of one that looks similar to this one. I could be totally splitting hairs about this too. I'm not sure.. This one is supposedly an '80s logo on a '69 guitar. The logo is close to the one you show, but with no dot. From https://www.es-335.com/2010/07/06/headstock-logos/ Edited June 8 by gearbasher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboTux Posted June 8 Author Share Posted June 8 2 hours ago, gearbasher said: This one is supposedly an '80s logo on a '69 guitar. The logo is close to the one you show, but with no dot. From https://www.es-335.com/2010/07/06/headstock-logos/ Wow great find. Thanks for digging that up. That is close. No dot. Yikes.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 (edited) 9 hours ago, HoboTux said: I've read the same about this window and decals. I think right now my biggest perplex is the headstock logo. I'm not sure how much variance there was in terms of the letter shaping and where the dot is floating over the "i" I haven't been able to find another photo of one that looks similar to this one. I could be totally splitting hairs about this too. I'm not sure.. The floating dot over the "i" and the closed "o" and "b" in the logo are period correct Edited June 8 by zombywoof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboTux Posted June 8 Author Share Posted June 8 6 minutes ago, zombywoof said: The closed "o" and "b" in the logo are period correct Thanks Zomby. What stuck out to me is how the 'S' is sort of floating in space while connected by strings. Any of the other similar-timeframe logos I've seen look a bit chunkier and the S is more tightly set between the B and O. Again, I'm not fully up to speed on how much difference there was even amongst the same production run at any one time.. so my observation is just that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 Nobody on this Earth is going to fake a 70s Hummingbird. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 8 minutes ago, HoboTux said: Thanks Zomby. What stuck out to me is how the 'S' is sort of floating in space while connected by strings. Any of the other similar-timeframe logos I've seen look a bit chunkier and the S is more tightly set between the B and O. Again, I'm not fully up to speed on how much difference there was even amongst the same production run at any one time.. so my observation is just that. When it comes to Hummingbirds, I am not up to speed either. What I know is generic Gibson stuff. The only way you are going to know if you picked wisely or not is to have a frame of reference meaning you have spent time with a good sampling of HBs from 1960 up to today. The good news is by 1970 Gibson had returned to the 1 11/16" nut and fixed pin bridges. The not so good news is that they also were going with a heavier bracing. While great for staving off warranty issues adding mass to the top is never a good idea. On the other hand, it got worse in 1971 when they started installing the now infamous Double X bracing. The bottom line is assuming the HB you are considering bringing home has a single X brace; the logo, tuners, fingerboard inlays, label, bridge and such do point to a guitar built in 1970. Admittedly the lack of a Serial Number as well as the "Made in the USA" stamp is odd as it gets so is not something to be overlooked. While there are certain years such as 1946 and 1947 where Gibson was notorious for not placing an FON on the neck block, I do not know enough about Kalamazoo Gibsons built this late in the game to know whether the absence of the stamp on the back of the headstock is a quirk which while even if rare is something which is not totally unexpected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboTux Posted June 8 Author Share Posted June 8 6 hours ago, zombywoof said: The bottom line is assuming the HB you are considering bringing home has a single X brace; the logo, tuners, fingerboard inlays, label, bridge and such do point to a guitar built in 1970. Admittedly the lack of a Serial Number as well as the "Made in the USA" stamp is odd as it gets so is not something to be overlooked. While there are certain years such as 1946 and 1947 where Gibson was notorious for not placing an FON on the neck block, I do not know enough about Kalamazoo Gibsons built this late in the game to know whether the absence of the stamp on the back of the headstock is a quirk which while even if rare is something which is not totally unexpected. Thanks very much Zomby, I appreciate the intel. All good food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 If there's a better than even chance you won't keep it for more than a couple of years - the question arises - how would you price it and how would you verify to a potential buyer that it is not a fake? With all the wear and tear on it and K'sD point that no one is going to go to this much trouble to make a fake - I"m assuming the price is right and you're looking for a keeper. In which case, you won't learn anymore in the future than you know now that would cause you to get rid of it. So, it sounds like a good deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboTux Posted June 10 Author Share Posted June 10 (edited) On 6/9/2024 at 8:34 AM, fortyearspickn said: If there's a better than even chance you won't keep it for more than a couple of years - the question arises - how would you price it and how would you verify to a potential buyer that it is not a fake? With all the wear and tear on it and K'sD point that no one is going to go to this much trouble to make a fake - I"m assuming the price is right and you're looking for a keeper. In which case, you won't learn anymore in the future than you know now that would cause you to get rid of it. So, it sounds like a good deal. Spot on across the board. I was expecting to hear some stern declarations akin to "that logo is total bs!" or "that decal is horribly mis-aligned!" from members who are way more schooled in this provenance than I am. But barring that - with the guitar having passed my ear test, trusting the seller - and considering the pricetag, I'm venturing to take the plunge. Edited June 10 by HoboTux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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