Soloing

[mcmurray]

These might not work so well - but then again they might depending on how you manage the out-of-key notes.

 

They won't work because E is the tonic' date=' not C#.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonic_(music)

 

[i']In music, the tonic is the first scale degree of the diatonic scale and the tonal center or final resolution tone. The triad formed on the tonic note, the tonic chord, is thus the most significant chord. More generally, the tonic is the pitch upon which all other pitches of a piece are hierarchically referenced.[/i]

[milod]

I dunno...

 

This comes back to what I said in terms of "style."

 

I gotta go with Robin on this one unless we're given more explicit direction in terms of style.

 

m

[Robin Nahum]

They won't work because E is the tonic' date=' not C#. [/quote']

 

Not sure that I agree.

 

C#m aeolian is just the scale of E major starting at the 6th degree.

 

If you are playing one of the other C#m scales, one way to manage the non-diatonic notes is as passing notes that resolve to diatonic notes.

 

There is an improvisation approach called "Forward Motion" documented by Hal Galper where you start playing in the new tone centre a beat or two before you actually hit the switchover bar. It creates a pleasing tension.

 

For instance, in that C-to-D example above, playing a C# (the 7 of D major) over the G7 will create a tension that will resolve when you play the Em7. You would probably not play F# (the other note that is in D but not C) as it would clash with the F in G7.

 

RN

[Silenced Fred]

Those who use the excuse that learning theory will hurt their playing or stifle their creativity are the ones who don't take their music seriously. I'm amazed at the few who knew the correct answer to the question. We are perpetuating the stereotype that guitar players don't know music.

 

As someone who took theory and writes songs, let me say this: I use theory to come up with chord progressions, figure stuff out, but I'm not married to it. I know too many 'technical' musicians who won't play outside of the box because they learned this stuff in theory. Only 3-4 dissonant tones per 50 notes, blah blah blah.

 

It helps to know theory, but don't be married to it. It will only expand options

[mcmurray]

Not sure that I agree.

 

C#m aeolian is just the sacle of E major starting at the 6th degree.

 

If you are playing one of the other C#m scales' date=' one way to manage the non-diatonic notes is as passing notes that resolve to diatonic notes.

 

There is an improvisation approach called "Forward Motion" documented by Hal Galper where you start playing in the new tone centre a beat or two before you actually hit the switchover bar. It creates a pleasing tension.

 

RN[/quote']

 

My issue is not with the non-diatonic notes of the melodic or harmonic minor. My issue is that with any sort of C# minor, the tonic is C# which goes against what the OP stated when he said the tune is in the key of E major.

 

The fact that the tune is in E major dictates that the tonic is E. Treating the tonic as C# within the same tune is simply wrong.

[mcmurray]

C#m aeolian is just the scale of E major starting at the 6th degree.

 

Yes they both contain the same notes. However' date=' C# minor by definition has a tonic of C#. E major by definition has a tonic of E.

 

My point is that music can NOT have two unique tonal centres simultaneously. If you can show me a tune which does, then I'll agree with you. until then...

 

I dunno...

 

This comes back to what I said in terms of "style."

 

I gotta go with Robin on this one unless we're given more explicit direction in terms of style.

 

m

 

 

The OP stated that the entire tune is in E major. Therefore we can dismiss any styles which are non-diatonic. The song in question is entirely diatonic.

[Look! Im guitarest!]

They won't work because E is the tonic' date=' not C#.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonic_(music)

 

[i']In music, the tonic is the first scale degree of the diatonic scale and the tonal center or final resolution tone. The triad formed on the tonic note, the tonic chord, is thus the most significant chord. More generally, the tonic is the pitch upon which all other pitches of a piece are hierarchically referenced.[/i]

Yeah, I mean, if you try to use a minor scale, it will have the correct notes, but just by playing the root, it sounds so unresolved.

[Robin Nahum]

Yes they both contain the same notes. However' date=' C# minor by definition has a tonic of C#. E major by definition has a tonic of E.

 

.....

 

The OP stated that the entire tune is in E major. Therefore we can dismiss any key changes within the song. The song in question is entirely diatonic.[/quote']

 

I see what you're saying. That's why I clarified that I think the OP means the scale of C#m - and that it should also be natural/aeolian. No risk in soloing over chords built from the scale of E major using that scale.

 

The OP stated that the song is "in the key of E Major". As I wrote in that segment, "Key of E", once you get beyond very simple composition, this really doesn't tell you much about what chords will appear. Often the most you can say is that there's a good chance that the last chord will be an E major of some kind.

 

RN

[milod]

Mac...

 

yeah, e major...

 

but what may seem to be dissonant in one style of music may be considered just about right in another.

 

m

[Robin Nahum]

My point is that music can NOT have two unique tonal centres simultaneously. If you can show me a tune which does' date=' then I'll agree with you. until then....[/quote']

 

How about...

 

|Am7 |Am7 |Cmaj7 |Em7 |?

 

Is the tone centre G major or C major? The notes from either will fit over these chords.

 

In the head, the melody might make the tone centre clear but once you're soloing who knows?

 

And you might use this ambiguity as part of crafting your solo.

 

R

[Look! Im guitarest!]

Mac...

 

yeah' date=' e major...

 

but what may seem to be dissonant in one style of music may be considered just about right in another.

 

m

[/quote']

Can you name some styles that might use dissonant notes?

 

To my ears, songs with a tonal center sound good, and songs with notes that don't fit in the key sound bad. Now, if you take a scale, say F Major, and add a B natural that will sound crappy. 1 note out of place is bad, but if you take an atonal song, with a chromatic scale, that works.

[mcmurray]

Yeah' date=' I mean, if you try to use a minor scale, it will have the correct notes, but just by playing the root, it sounds so unresolved.[/quote']

 

Exactly.

 

Good discussion fellas.

[Robin Nahum]

Yeah' date=' I mean, if you try to use a minor scale, it will have the correct notes, but just by playing the root, it sounds so unresolved.[/quote']

 

Yep. A standard way to resolve is to end the phrase with the 1st or 5th of the chord over which you're playing.

 

So |Dm7 G7 | Cmaj7 |. Your solo might start with the 3rd or 7th of Dm7 - F or C but using thie above approach you would play a C or a G as you come to the end of the second bar.

 

R

[mcmurray]

Can you name some styles that might use dissonant notes?

 

Plenty of styles Loaf. Jazz, for example.

[Look! Im guitarest!]

Yep. A standard way to resolve is to end the phrase with the 1st or 5th of the chord over which you're playing.

 

So |Dm7 G7 | Cmaj7 |. Your solo might start with the 3rd or 7th of Dm7 - F or C but using thie above approach you would play a C or a G as you come to the end of the second bar.

 

R

Interesting.

 

I was just thinking: I may be one to use a specific scale to improvise, but I'm not very much about theory. When I write a song, I just use my ear to tell which chords go together and how they should resolve.

[Robin Nahum]

Can you name some styles that might use dissonant notes?

 

To my ears' date=' songs with a tonal center sound good, and songs with notes that don't fit in the key sound bad. Now, if you take a scale, say F Major, and add a B natural that will sound crappy. 1 note out of place is bad, but if you take an atonal song, with a chromatic scale, that works. [/quote']

 

Like Mac said, jazz explores this. This is what bebop was all about.

 

Charlie Parker's great insight was that you could use all the notes of the scale. Listen to some Benny Goodman from around 1945, which will be largely diatonic, and then to some Bird from the same period.

 

R

[Look! Im guitarest!]

Plenty of styles Loaf. Jazz' date=' for example.[/quote']I should know this. I play and listen to jazz. Not enough. Well I definately knew it was dissonant, but I was talking about playing notes out of key. Same thing? I always thought of dissonance as certain intervals like tritones, and chords like augmented and diminished.

 

Like Mac said' date=' jazz explores this. This is what bebop was all about.

 

Charlie Parker's great insight was that you could use all the notes of the scale. Listen to some Benny Goodman from around 1945, which will be largely diatonic, and then to some Bird from the same period.

 

R

 

[/quote]I actually play some jazz songs from a real book. I even have vids of me playing Blues for Alice on Guitar and Mandolin up on youtube.

[mcmurray]

Check out this cat Loaf (btw, Bucket has played with him if I recall correctly). Definitely an acquired taste

 

[YOUTUBE]

[/YOUTUBE]

[dem00n]

Check out this cat Loaf (btw' date=' Bucket has played with him if I recall correctly). Definitely an acquired taste :)

 

[YOUTUBE']

[/YOUTUBE]

Dude...that was ****ing horrible.

Not in a rude way but...that was.

[mcmurray]

Dude...that was ****ing horrible.

Not in a rude way but...that was.

 

I wouldn't have expected you to appreciate it dem00n. As I said, an acquired taste. We were on the subject of dissonance, and that video is a prime example.

[dem00n]

I wouldn't have expected you to appreciate it dem00n. As I said' date=' an acquired taste. We were on the subject of dissonance, and that video is a prime example.

[/quote']

Does this guy sell?

Cause i can just pickup some kids off the street and give them a guitar.

[Look! Im guitarest!]

Check out this cat Loaf (btw' date=' Bucket has played with him if I recall correctly). Definitely an acquired taste

 

[YOUTUBE]

[/YOUTUBE]

Wow, reminds me of Bucket, but he doesn't play that kind of stuff for that long. Very atonal. Is that improvised? He plays on Company 91, I knew I recognized his name.

[Californiaman]

I know what you're asking but I would like to throw in some thoughts. I hope they are in line with what you are trying to do.

 

Which Minor?

 

As somebody noted above C#m is the relative 6th of E major and the scale of C#m is a more "natural" choice than the others because it is diatonic with E major - provided we are talking about C#m natural or aeolian. The structure is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 and the notes with a root of C# are C# D# E F# G# A B which are all in E major.

 

But there are other minors. These include C#m melodic minor (1 2 b3 4 5 6 7) or C#m harmonic minor (1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7). These might not work so well - but then again they might depending on how you manage the out-of-key notes.

 

Key of E

 

A lot of pop/rock and folk is in the one key in the sense that all the chords are derived from the one scale. Often the chords are I' date=' IV V7 and VIm or in this case, E A B7 and C#m.

 

Once you move into jazz and classical and more complex rock - or folk music from non-Anglo cultures, the chords may not be from the one key and you need to deal with this in your soloing.

 

For instance, when improvising in jazz, a standard approach is to identify the "tone centres". These are short sequences of bars that do have chords from the one key. For instance |Dm7 G7 |Cmaj7 | are in C major so you would be "safe" (no discords) playing notes from the key of C major for these two bars. But they might be followed by |Em7 A7|Dmaj7 |. The tone centre has now shifted from D so for the second two bars, you would, if playing safely, choose notes out of the scale of D major.

 

So where does this leave the key signature at the beginning of the chart?

 

I now simply think of it as something that tells me whereabouts on the staff the melody line is played. For instance, if a song in the Real Book is in the key of C and the first note is A, I know that if I transpose the song to say Bb, the first note will need to be G.

 

I don't think of the key signature as something that tells me what chords are allowed. I expect that a song in C will have other chords besides Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 and Bm7b5 and their extensions.

 

Which brings me to my last point.

 

[b']What Are the Other Chords?[/b]

 

If the rest of the chords in this song are not diatonic with E major, I would probably not be sticking with C#m natural as a base for the entire solo.

 

What's the point of all this theory ? Basically efficiency and accuracy if you're improvising. You simply don't have the option of trying stuff out; the note has to be right first time.

 

But it also helps you compose. You get a sense of how solos will sound depending on which notes are used. Very typically, playing the 3rd or the 7th of the chord help the listener hear the chord change under the solo line. Playing a 1 or a 5 tends to resolve the idea. Non-diatonic notes can be used to create tension.

 

RN

 

Excellent response Robin Nahum. I enjoyed reading it. You certainly have a grasp of theory and practicality as to what works. Thanks for your reply. Again, excellent.

[Californiaman]

Dude...that was ****ing horrible.

Not in a rude way but...that was.

 

Ha!

I agree with you dem00n.

I'm sorry, he may know what he's doing, but I can't relate to that at all.

It reminds me of something one of the organizers from the Pismo Beach Jazz festival who once told me regarding some styles of "new" jazz that it "sounds like a sick cow on acid," or "somebody strangling a cat."

Now I'm not saying it sounds like a sick cow on acid or somebody strangling a cat, but it's close. It's not something I'd want to listen to.

Oh well... to each his own.

[duane v]

We were on the subject of dissonance' date=' and that video is a prime example.

[/quote']

 

you can say that again[blink]