Epi Dot Wiring questions ( and pickups )

[tt]

Hi

 

I am messing around and trying different wiring schemes on my Epi Dot , trying to find the best sounding wiring to it , mainly to get its stock pickups a bit clearer/brighter and avoid the extra muddyness while rolling down volume pots (I firstly thought about changing the pickups and borrowed the SD SH-55 Seth Lovers for try, but kind of like the meatier Dot´s original pickups better, if only they had better treble end/ a bit more transparency) .

 

 

It feels strange to have one vol pot going master while 2 pups engaged (toggle in mid) . I´d prefer to have independent volumes. Can anybody tell from experience/wisdom – can adding of independent volumes mod loose some treble bleed effect ( when i have previously the treble bleed circuit added)? I kind of notice some difference cut cannot tell for sure...

 

I have 4 x 500k log pots , 2 x 0.022 microF tone caps and 2 x 0.001 microF treble bleed caps to use.

 

In addition - how you would comment it´s stock wiring, is it analog to something Gibson has used , but just different layout?:

http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/500/e_dot_wire_pots_swapped_accidentally.JPG

 

( Btw - which wiring do you prefer as basis – 50-s or modern? :-) a million times asked question)

[TWANG]

You wont lose any treble going with independant controls.

 

Try .015uF caps... go with some sprague orange drops.

you could shorten a wire or two.. but.. I doubt there will be any sonic difference.

 

You can thin hot pickups out a little by moving them deeper into the mounting rings.. but go too far and you lose what you gained.

 

TWANG

[John Beef]

Not sure about independent volume mods. However, I recently rewired my Sheraton with a 335 wiring kit from Acme Guitar Works. With the kit came the "Volume kit" for the volume pots. I haven't ever used anything like that but tried them out. Rolling down the volume pots retains 100% of the clarity and I used the vintage wiring schematic. In fact, when I get really low, like around 1 or 2 on the pot, it's actually more trebley than all the way up. I like that.

 

Also, buying some higher quality electronic components will improve the top end clarity of those stock pickups a lot. Those stock potentiometers are crappy and sound very bad.

[tt]

the original pots in mine dont feel crap at all - big casings, smooth and silent, except that vols are linear and since i cannot anyhow get used to linears so i change those ones . The original tone pots are audios ( log) , and measure even over 500k ( 520 or so). Cannot tell anything about the quality of original tone caps ( 0.022 microfarad) - these could be made from chinese sand and dust and factory lady´s dna :-)

 

is there any comments on the epi´s original wiring ( http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/500/e_dot_wire_pots_swapped_accidentally.JPG ) - does it look very far from original gibson´s wiring or it is just a little different layout but same basics? worked well (except the treble bleed), had even independent volumes...

 

T

[TWANG]

yeah. dump linears from the vol. position.

and treble bleed caps are cheap.. just ceramic chips at rat shack for cents.

try different values..lower and higher.. see what you like.

 

I can't see what's going on there.. but

I use independant wires not the cheapy two in one stuff...

it's just hard to see exactly what's up . looks like everything is ok.. just light wire and not very good shielding.

doesn't look like what I do anyway. *G*

 

TWANG

[tt]

update:

 

the 50´s wiring ( with 4x audio 500 pots and 0.022 microfarad tone caps) made it so much better , more alive :) . In fact it now (to my ears) sounds better with it´s original pickups than with Seth Lovers (so, gave back the Seths, the meatier sounding originals will remain, Seth Lovers seemed to lack something what i´d expect from an humbucker pickup, were very clear/transparent though).

 

Adding treble bleed felt useful (to my ears) , its just that the 0.001 microfarad treble bleed seems to maintain a little too much highs/treble while rolling down volume, will try 0.002 shortly.

 

So, if anybody else is feeling something inhibited with his late chinese epi dot, i highly recommend firstly to rewire it properly (and think about adding treble bleed) , before dropping the original pickups and start spending noticeable sums for their replacement :)

 

I´ve by now got also used to non-independent volumes (while toggle in mid position), there is a possibility to make/retain them independent though ( with both modern and 50´s wiring )

[tt]

another update:

 

by now i have clipped off the treble bleeds, so - a pure 50´s wiring , kinda feels more natural (although looses now a bit treble, retains more of ´liveliyness´ of t hepickups while vol not in max) . I like my Dot´s bitey bridge pickup very much, but there is something just not right with its neck pup. It is not very clear and is somewhat ´boomy´/ bassy and dull ( I have tried to set it up very different ways - height, angled, and fiddled a lot with pole screws) . So, am lurking for neck pickup to upgrade. After lot of reading (and previously trying the Sthe Lovers), I am besides the ´main stream choice´of Gibson 57 classic very much interested in Dimarzio PAF classic .

 

Can you give some comparison of dimarzio PAF classic against the Gibson 57 classic ? Am I on the right way with the imagination, that the Dimarzio would be a bit clearer ( and also cheaper :-) ) ? What are the main differences between these two ( if there are any ) ?

[Jack Knife]

I use a set of DiMarzio Air Classics in an Agile Les Paul and like them a lot. The Air Classic is basically the uncovered version of the PAF Classic.

 

However, from your descriptions, I don't think any humbucker is going to give you what you are looking for in the neck position. Even the Air Classics, which are very similar to the Seth Lovers, are still very bassy in the neck position.

 

I would suggest going with a humbucker-sized P90 in that spot. GFS Mean 90 or Dream 90 (a little clearer than the Mean 90) are very good sounding pickups in the neck position and very affordable. Also, the Tonerider Rebel 90 is very good, very similar to the more expensive Duncan Phat Cat.

 

I use straight '50s wiring on all my guitars and agree completely with your assessment of added liveliness to the sound. I've kept many stock pickups after simply converting the guitar's wiring.

[mud guy]

Hey Telbert-

Am I missing something? I have an 08 MIC dot which I purchased new, and with the toggle in the middle position (i.e. both pickups on), I have independent volume control for either pickup, and when either p.u. is turned down all the way, both pickups go silent in the middle position, which is kind of nice as it allows me to use it as a "kill switch". I guess what I am curious about is whether there are differences in how these guitars come wired from the factory.

 

cheers

Cal

[jcwillow777]

+1 on the Air Classics. I put a set in my Agile AL-2000 and I love them. I don't find the neck pup too bassy for me, but then I use the neck pup for lead and the middle position and bridge pup for rhythm. I get a lot of crunch out of them and have been very happy with them.

 

I put a set of GFS Vintage 59s in my Dot and Sheraton. The neck pup is not too bassy at all for me, even when using the neck pup for rhythm. I'm thinking the '57s might give a little more bottom end, but I'm okay without it.

[tt]

another update:

before upgrading the pickups, I decided to try out better quality pickup covers. Installing SD nickelsilver (newsilver/german silver) cover 11800-20-Nc (was available at local store) instead of the original chromed brass opened/cleared up the neck pickup noticeably. Poles holes were not perfect fit though , so needed filing - widening the pole spacing a tiny bit).

Taking measures I discovered that Dot´s bridge pickup pole spacing (approx 52.4 mm). qualifies rather as "f-spacing" than gibson spacing So i ordered the closest matching , cheapest and fastest deliverable (to me) cover to it : PNS3N - 52.8mm. will need prolly some fine filing of pole holes as well. Waiting for it to be received and installed.

 

 

 

The newsilver covers seem to really make improvement over the chromed brasses.

 

 

A question: is it 100% sure that the Epi "57 classic" pickups (The MIC Dot stock pups) are alnico V?

 

 

mud guy :

the MIC Dot wiring looks different from correct gibson 50-s wiring ( http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/500/e_dot_wire_pots_swapped_accidentally.JPG ) . The independent vs not independent volume controls is not a big issue to me (they were independent with stock wiring though, if i remember it right), i am just trying to get good nice naturally sounding treble retain and improve liveliness of pickups.

Hey Telbert-

Am I missing something? I have an 08 MIC dot which I purchased new' date=' and with the toggle in the middle position (i.e. both pickups on), I have independent volume control for either pickup, and when either p.u. is turned down all the way, both pickups go silent in the middle position, which is kind of nice as it allows me to use it as a "kill switch". I guess what I am curious about is whether there are differences in how these guitars come wired from the factory.

cheers

Cal

[/quote']

[carverman]

Hey Telbert-

Am I missing something? I have an 08 MIC dot which I purchased new' date=' and with the toggle in the middle position (i.e. both pickups on), [b']I have independent volume control for either pickup, and when either p.u. is turned down all the way, both pickups go silent in the middle position[/b], which is kind of nice as it allows me to use it as a "kill switch". I guess what I am curious about is whether there are differences in how these guitars come wired from the factory.

 

cheers

Cal

 

 

I believe this is the way the standard Gibson wiring works.

You have independent volume control until the switch goes in the mid position , which then connects both

p-ups to both volumes..( a parallel configuration). In this position, either volume which is

turned down will affect both, but you also can get a mix of both depending on the volume settings.

[gearhead]

Hi

 

I am messing around and trying different wiring schemes on my Epi Dot ' date=' trying to find the best sounding wiring to it , mainly to get its stock pickups a bit clearer/brighter and avoid the extra muddyness while rolling down volume pots (I firstly thought about changing the pickups and borrowed the SD SH-55 Seth Lovers for try, but kind of like the meatier Dot´s original pickups better, if only they had better treble end/ a bit more transparency) .

 

 

It feels strange to have one vol pot going master while 2 pups engaged (toggle in mid) . I´d prefer to have independent volumes. Can anybody tell from experience/wisdom – can adding of independent volumes mod loose some treble bleed effect ( when i have previously the treble bleed circuit added)? I kind of notice some difference cut cannot tell for sure...

 

I have 4 x 500k log pots , 2 x 0.022 microF tone caps and 2 x 0.001 microF treble bleed caps to use.

 

In addition - how you would comment it´s stock wiring, is it analog to something Gibson has used , but just different layout?:

http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/500/e_dot_wire_pots_swapped_accidentally.JPG

 

( Btw - which wiring do you prefer as basis – 50-s or modern? :-) a million times asked question)

[/quote']

 

If you still have questions about the pickup wiring check out the link to this website below.

 

Guitar Electronics

[tt]

OK, another update (and tone cap questions)

 

Meanwhile, I have rewired it to the Angus Young Sig SG specs - it looks like a hybrid between 50s and modern ( although some wiser have told its a modern wiring now) - if to look at the tone pots and the relevant lug of tone cap, then it is the same as 50´s , but when to look at the vol pot and the vol side lug of the tone cap, then this part looks like modern wiring :-) . The vols and tones still interact in middle position ( which i by now have become used to pretty well) , but now there is not anymore the effect of loosing some volume , when you have vol not maxed and start to turn down the relevant pup´s tone pot with 50s wiring, I noticed such effect, slightly). Retains highs at least as good as pure 50s wiring.

 

By now, my Dot has high quality pickup covers - nickel/german silver/nickelsilver - what ever they are called - they are not goldish under the plating, but silver, so they are definately not brass. They brought the pickups more to lively, perhaps a tiny bit easier squeel/feedback now ( I intentionally waxed the covers as thin as possible , prior installing ).

 

Note: the Dot´s bridge pickup is ´F-space´ - it´s poles gaps ( i.e. strings distance from eachother) is a little wider than classic Gibby!

 

 

I try to change as few original parts as possible on the guitar ( interested in getting it to sound as good as it can gets with te original pickups, bridge, nut, tuners - its too easy and much less tweaking fun to just change the pickups and other stuff :-) )

 

 

So, I am almost "there" with my Dot , but would like to get the neck pup a little less boomy/bassy in general. It can be improved a bit , by playing around with the pup height and pole screws, but this has its own limits and drawbacks. So, I have some doubts and questions about 0.015 tone cap ( instead of the original/common 0.022 uF) :

 

1. Will going to 0.015 from 0.022 take down the general boomyness/bassy overtones of the neck pickup ?

2. How big differences it brings, comparing to the original 0.022? Will it get overly thin(ner) , or just takes away that boomy bass part froom neck pup?

3. Will I achieve the effect in every position of the Neck vol pot?

 

Many thanks in advance, for any comments , experience sharing

Best Regards,

Telbert

[KX36]

OK' date=' another update ([b']and tone cap questions[/b])

 

Meanwhile, I have rewired it to the Angus Young Sig SG specs - it looks like a hybrid between 50s and modern ( although some wiser have told its a modern wiring now) - if to look at the tone pots and the relevant lug of tone cap, then it is the same as 50´s , but when to look at the vol pot and the vol side lug of the tone cap, then this part looks like modern wiring :-)

 

So, I am almost "there" with my Dot , but would like to get the neck pup a little less boomy/bassy in general. It can be improved a bit , by playing around with the pup height and pole screws, but this has its own limits and drawbacks. So, I have some doubts and questions about 0.015 tone cap ( instead of the original/common 0.022 uF) :

 

1. Will going to 0.015 from 0.022 take down the general boomyness/bassy overtones of the neck pickup ?

2. How big differences it brings, comparing to the original 0.022? Will it get overly thin(ner) , or just takes away that boomy bass part froom neck pup?

3. Will I achieve the effect in every position of the Neck vol pot?

"50s" wiring is about whether the wiper of the volume pot is connected to the input (pickup) or the output (switch). Which way round the cap and tone pot are doesn't make a difference as long as it's in series, so that's just the same as modern wiring; so unless you have independant volume controls in the middle position (i.e. 1 pot can't mute both pickups), you've gone back to stock wiring. That means any change in tone you hear now is from either your subjective hearing or a different mod you've done; possibly the pickup covers.

 

Lowering the cap value will only change the tone when your tone control's in use and not up at 10. It changes the corner frequency at which the tone control attenuates the trebble. I can't remember whether you have to change the capacitance up or down to get that frequency higher like you want. It doesn't really matter because you won't get any more trebble out of the pickup by changing the capacitor than by turning the tone knob to 10, the lower the tone knob is set, the more effect the cap value will have.

If that's not trebbly enough for you, you need a more trebbly pickup or a more trebbly guitar. I'm not an expert in which pickups for a hollowbody/archtop, but I'm sure there's something out there from Seymour Duncan or Dimarzio. P90 would be logical; single coil, more trebble. I expect you can get a pickup ring to put a P90 in a humbucker sized hole, or just get a humbucker sized P90. You could rewire a humbucker for a coil split or put the coils in parallel, but not on stock epi pickups, you'd need a 4 conductor wired pickup and if you're changing the pickups, better get something fit for purpose.

[EpiDotHead]

Telbert:

 

I had very similar complaints about my Dot Studio when I got it. And the Studio's hot bridge pickup (which the regular Dot doesn't have) was very muddy for a bridge pickup. I replaced the pickups with GFS Mean 90s, and that was a noticeable improvement, brightness-wise. But it turns out that the main culprit was my amp, a Hartke hybrid that was just plain muddy, even with the treble control at 10. My new amp (a Roland Cube) makes for an entirely new world of tone. I'm not recommending a new amp (yet), or any particular amp, but what are you using now? Maybe your amp needs upgrading, not your guitar. IMO, you're wasting your time with wiring changes, covers, etc. - not going to change the overall tone of your current setup.

[tt]

I am pretty satisfied with my amps, as they are :

 

A totally overhauled/recapped mint SFDR (´factory scam BF´ - factory custom BF cosmetics) - have tried many different speakers in it, and like it very much with a Jensen MOD 12-70 now - great tone and not too loud - MOD series Jensens are underrated speakers, better than some twice the price ones!;

A really cool pure handcraft vibrochamp clone with alnico jensen and onboard tube driven reverb;

A great small tone machine Laney VC15 ( trying to mod it´s ext cab socket at the moment - stupid design - cuts out the internal 8 ohm 10" );

A 1994 US made pre-reissue PV C50 410 , which i keep hotrodding just in the inerest of the science of caps and resistors :-)

(plus some toys not counting as real amps , a´la MC, DA5, minitwin)

 

 

 

I guess I´m still gonna try out the 0.015 cap for neck and let us all know the difference ( if there´d be any :-) )

[tt]

Meanwhile, since the ordered orange drops ( caps 0.015, 0.01 ) are still somewhere on their way, I tried another trick. Dont even remember where I had read or heared about it . I turned the neck pickup over in its ring - 180 degrees- so now the pole screws of the neck pickup are towards bridge, not the neck anymore. In theory the neck pickup now picks up the signal in a tiny bit another string vibrating amplitude conditions. Anyway - I adjusted the height, gave it a small slant (2-3 mm bigger distance on low E string end than on high e string end), pole screws a bit higher up on low strings and more inside the pickup on higher strings). By first impressions it seems that I got noticeably better with the excessive boominess/too bassy of the neck pup. Anybody else done or heared about the neck pickup 180 degree turn trick ?