Dulli Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Hi I can buy Epiphone Casino E230TD. Owner claims that it was produced in '60 in USA. The problem is that it has no serial number on the back of the headstock. It makes my suspicious if the guitar is an original. However, probably there were some series of E230TD placed on the market without such a number on the headstock (or maybe I am wrong ?). Furthermore, the guitar is black. Owner stated that he has checked the paper (label) sticked inside as well as the ink, and the results have confirmed that the quitar is an original made in USA. Could you please help me to confirm whether it is true ? (how can I insert a photo? I tried but it seems to be too complicated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 I can buy Epiphone Casino E230TD. Owner claims that it was produced in '60 in USA. The problem is that it has no serial number on the back of the headstock. It makes my suspicious if the guitar is an original. It should. However' date=' probably there were some series of E230TD placed on the market without such a number on the headstock (or maybe I am wrong ?). Furthermore' date=' the guitar is black. [/quote''] Not a standard color for a '60s Casino. Owner stated that he has checked the paper (label) sticked inside as well as the ink' date=' and the results have confirmed that the quitar is an original made in USA. Could you please help me to confirm whether it is true ?[/quote'] Sounds like BS, but we'll need photos. (how can I insert a photo? I tried but it seems to be too complicated Posting Photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dulli Posted July 15, 2010 Author Share Posted July 15, 2010 Thank you very much. I will upload pictures a.s.a.p. In two hours I am going to try this guitar. I should add that the price for it is circa 1 000 USD. I am Polish and the transaction is to be made in Poland. I know that the price is to good to be true, even as for Polish market conditions. and here are the pictures (I hope it will work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony_JB Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Nope. Looks like a reissue to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Thank you very much. I will upload pictures a.s.a.p. In two hours I am going to try this guitar. I should add that the price for it is circa 1 000 USD. I am Polish and the transaction is to be made in Poland. I know that the price is to good to be true' date=' even as for Polish market conditions. [/quote'] Definitely not vintage American. It's modern Asian. On vintage USA models, the neck meets the body at the 16th fret, not the 17th. Also, USA models have 2 screws on the truss rod cover, not 3. Pass on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animalfarm Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 JerryMac has given you good advice - please read the info in link, and he's right, BLACK is not a color option (see link). http://www.vintageguitars.org.uk/EpiphoneCasino.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stig Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Definitely 90's or 2000's Asian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dulli Posted July 16, 2010 Author Share Posted July 16, 2010 Well, thank you once again ! I will buy this guitar either way B) The truss rod cover is a new one, owner had to replace it. Maybe that is way is has 3 screws. Probably will negotiate the price, however it looks great and, most of all, it sound just amazing ! I have just checked it with my Vox ac30 Alnico Blue and it matched just perfect. The sound is full, warm and solid. I do not know how it is possible if it is only Asian product, not a vintage American, but it is true. Thus, whether it is made in Uganda, Brasil or China, I want to have it I checked dozen guitars, new and old Casinos and Sheratons and none of them sounded as good as this one. On the sticker inside there is a number 323803 as well as "Kalamazoo, Michgan". Even if it is a fake, as mentioned: it sound just great :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dulli Posted July 16, 2010 Author Share Posted July 16, 2010 And another clues that might help you to assess this guitar: the markers/inlays on the neck are for sure pearloid (as far as I know since the last few years there have been plastic). Furthemore, it seems that the body was painted manually. I believe I can see brushe's markers (I do not know if it was a rule in the past, or someone has just painted some defects The borders used to be white, now on the body they are almost yellow, however by polishing the frets it appeared that they used to be white. Of course on the sticker I mentioned hereinabove there is a model description: Casino E230TD. Does it change your assessement ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AS90 Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Black Casinos are quite common. http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=black+epiphone+casino&rlz=1I7GGLL_en-GB&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=AjhATMn4LMr84Abd2LyoDg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=6&ved=0CEYQsAQwBQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 And another clues that might help you to assess this guitar: the markers/inlays on the neck are for sure pearloid (as far as I know since the last few years there have been plastic). Furthemore' date=' it seems that the body was painted manually. I believe I can see brushe's markers (I do not know if it was a rule in the past, or someone has just painted some defects The borders used to be white, now on the body they are almost yellow, however by polishing the frets it appeared that they used to be white. Of course on the sticker I mentioned hereinabove there is a model description: Casino E230TD. Does it change your assessement ? No. Not trying to pop your balloon or anything - but the guitar has already been assessed from the photos you provided (by JerryMac, most usefully) - Definitely not vintage American. It's modern Asian. On vintage USA models' date=' the neck meets the body at the 16th fret, not the 17th.[/quote'] Sometimes evidence is irrefutable, and further exploration cannot overcome those fundamental findings. It looks like a nice guitar; but your request for further assessment, in the hope of this being a vintage American made Epiphone Casino or some other rare model, seems to hinge on: 1) a paper label inside the guitar (easily doctored, and as you said yourself, where is the stamped serial number on the back of the headstock?); 2) the guitar being touched-up with black paint and the belief that someone has retrospectively attached a modern 3-screw truss rod cover to a vintage guitar, (which would originally have been fitted with the 2-screw variety); 3) the inlays. I had a good look at your photos...it is impossible to say for certain from those whether the inlays are abalone or plastic "pearloid," but I don't see any of the iridescence one would expect from Mother of Pearl in the well-lit photos or camera flash. However, this topic has discussed here before: http://forums.epiphone.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=3531 which includes these useful comparative photos: Elitist headstock inlay (MOP): Elitist fingerboard inlay (Pearloid): To my mind, it looks like a modern, Asian-made Epiphone which, judging by the info you have provided about the sticker, someone has tried to doctor slightly in the hope of mimicking a '60s era American-made instrument. If it's a good guitar then good luck with it! But don't allow your aspirations concerning its (unproven) provenance to cause you to pay over the odds for it..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dulli Posted July 16, 2010 Author Share Posted July 16, 2010 I appreciate all your comments and do not expect to change your mind on the guitar in question after additional information I have just posted I do not know a lot about Casinos and your advises are very helpfull. A paper label looks excactly like this (I mean the shape, detalis etc - I will add a picture of the label of THIS guitar later): If the label were original, then - following http://home.provide.net/~cfh/epiphone.html - the guitar would be made in 1965 which seems to be sci-fi. 3-screw truss rod cover - owner warned me that there was no cover once he had bought the guitar; he asked a friend to fix it, so I know that it is new. The inlays are made of mother-of-pearl for shure. I do not expect to have a vintage guitar, I wanna one sounding well, and this one does. I only want to collect as many information as possible. Maybe you can inform me when Epiphone stopped to use MOP for inlays (if ever) ? And when Casinos were started to be produced in black ? Maybe these information will help me to assess when it was manufactured. Tnak you once again for your support ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dulli Posted July 16, 2010 Author Share Posted July 16, 2010 And here is the label, sorry for poor quality: And the last question: my friend was in USA last year, he found in a shop Casino with one pick-up. It looked like a vintage one, I know that such a Casino was manufactured. However, it did not have a serial number on the headstock as well. Owner of the shop told my friend that there was a time when Epiphone did not put this number oh headstocks. Is it possible ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 There is a useful internet resource called: http://www.archive.org which is attempting to archive the internet... Using it, I accessed the Epiphone page from April 2001. http://web.archive.org/web/20010411131612/www.epiphone.com/heritage/index.html (and follow the 'Archtop' and 'Casino' links) voila - an ebony Casino. I seem to remember ebony as being a late 1990s early 2000s colour choice for Casinos, so that seems to fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stig Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 My advice is to buy it if you like it, but don't pay anywhere near $1000 American for it. Maybe half of that. You can get a very nice new one for $599, and an even better one for $999. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bynapkinart Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 it seems that the owner is trying shamelessly to convince you that this is a vintage instrument. it simply cannot be a vintage Casino. The neck doesn't meet the body at the right spot. Vintage US made ALWAYS has the 16th fret join. As a rule. In fact, the only two guitars in the "Casino" style that meet at any other point are the standard Chinese and Korean Casinos (including the IBJL), and the Gibson ES-330 (some meet at the 19th like an ES 335, other vintage models meet at the 17th like today's standard Casinos). The Elitist even has the 16th fret join. He put a paper label inside himself, or someone else did. Maybe he bought it thinking it was vintage and doesn't want to eat the cost of not doing research, or he bought it and modded it himself to sell it off to someone else. Either way, it is not vintage. I know how badly you want it to be vintage, but if you ask anyone who knows these guitars on any forum on the internet, they will tell you the same things we are telling you. Asian Casinos can be phenomenal instruments! I love my Korean Casino, it is easily the best guitar I've ever owned...and I paid a LOT less than $1000 US for it. My advice is to call his bluff. Tell him it can't be vintage. If you really want the guitar and it is in great condition, tell him that $400 US sounds reasonable. Otherwise, if you really want to spend $1000 on a quality instrument, great! Pick up an Elitist Casino! Or even get one of those nice Gibson LP Studios with P90s. (The Casino is way more fun to play) Please don't fall for it though...this sounds scammier than Nigeria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Something to contemplate... Thomann ship to Poland for €20 A brand new Epiphone Casino will cost you €429 (US $555); or a brand new Inspired by John Lennon Epiphone Casino will cost €689 (US $892). The price for the IBJL model includes the hard-shell case. See: http://www.thomann.de/gb/search_dir.html?xsid=6e9404386751696b0b7585e787881b8c&sw=casino&x=0&y=0 EDIT: It seems that Thomann also has a Polish website http://www.thomann.de/pl/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dulli Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 I use thomann.de very often, I bought there one guitar and a lot of other different things. I would buy a guitar there however I am not a big fan of buying guitars on line, without having it checked before. That is why I decide to buy a guitar that I can check personally. However, I wanted to buy a guitar on line in USA but most of the sellers do not ship to Poland. And, very often, the price + shipment would be more than 1000 USD. During last two weeks I checked in Poland (all new quitars): 2 Casinos, 2 Casinos IBJL, Sheraton and Dot. And I was dissapointed. I expected especially IBJL to sound great (real Gibson P-90 !) - it sounded mmmmm, I do not know a proper word in English, as I could hear them through a wall, no clear full sound. The cost of such IBJL was circa 1000 USD (including case of course). I am noticed now that this quitar may not be a real vintage It is time to negotiate the price. But still waiting for the aswer if there was any series of Casinos without serial number on the headstock :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 I use thomann.de very often' date=' I bought there one guitar and a lot of other different things. I would buy a guitar there however I am not a big fan of buying guitars on line, without having it checked before. That is why I decide to buy a guitar that I can check personally. However, I wanted to buy a guitar on line in USA but most of the sellers do not ship to Poland. And, very often, the price + shipment would be more than 1000 USD. During last two weeks I checked in Poland (all new quitars): 2 Casinos, 2 Casinos IBJL, Sheraton and Dot. And I was dissapointed. I expected especially IBJL to sound great (real Gibson P-90 !) - it sounded mmmmm, I do not know a proper word in English, as I could hear them through a wall, no clear full sound. The cost of such IBJL was circa 1000 USD (including case of course). I am noticed now that this quitar may not be a real vintage It is time to negotiate the price. But still waiting for the aswer if there was any series of Casinos without serial number on the headstock :) You're wasting our time, do what you want to do. You don't need our approval. Believe what you want, but the guy is trying to **** you. Personally, I wouldn't stand for that, no matter how much I liked the guitar. At least make sure he buys you dinner first... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dulli Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 Hey Jerry, no need to be rude ! I respect all advices you have all just gave me, I really do ! It is always good to hear what wiser people have to say. I do not know much about Epiphones, I've been using Tele for years. But, this is forum, the place to exchange thoughts. I know NOW that the guitar at this price is not a good bargain. I keep asking for help because I try to collect as much knowledge as possible. I do not ask you for approval. If you consider my posts as waisting your time, I am very sorry, I did not want to. I think I have noticed on this forum much stupider problems people want to have solved. Have a nice end of weekend, greeting from very hot Poland ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Hey Jerry' date=' no need to be rude ! I respect all advices you have all just gave me, I really do ! It is always good to hear what wiser people have to say. I do not know much about Epiphones, I've been using Tele for years. But, this is forum, the place to exchange thoughts. I know NOW that the guitar at this price is not a good bargain. I keep asking for help because I try to collect as much knowledge as possible. I do not ask you for approval. If you consider my posts as waisting your time, I am very sorry, I did not want to. I think I have noticed on this forum much stupider problems people want to have solved. Have a nice end of weekend, greeting from very hot Poland ![/quote'] Being nice wasn't working, so I figured that slapping you around a bit might bring you to your senses. There's a guy out there trying to CHEAT YOU, treating you like a fool. He has no respect for you, he just wants to take you for everything he can. A counterfeit label put in Asian guitar designed to CHEAT YOU is OK??? Everyone in this thread told you the guitar is a FAKE, that the guy is trying to CHEAT YOU, and you keep making excuses for him. Do you really want to do business with someone who is trying to CHEAT YOU??? I think I have noticed on this forum much stupider problems people want to have solved. We addressed your problem, and you got good advice from several people. You don't seem to want to accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bynapkinart Posted July 18, 2010 Share Posted July 18, 2010 hey come on, the guy had no idea about what it was and was grasping desperately at the vintage thing. it's cool. i'm pretty sure everyone in here is guilty of wanting something to be something it isn't. why do you think so much modding happens? I'm positive I'll be flamed for saying that...but the OP wasn't hurting anyone by trying to understand the guitar. Remember, there was a time when you didn't know $h@t about stuff but tried to have an opinion voted lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted July 18, 2010 Share Posted July 18, 2010 hey come on' date=' the guy had no idea about what it was and was grasping desperately at the vintage thing. [b'] it's cool. [/b] i'm pretty sure everyone in here is guilty of wanting something to be something it isn't. why do you think so much modding happens? I'm positive I'll be flamed for saying that...but the OP wasn't hurting anyone by trying to understand the guitar. Remember, there was a time when you didn't know $h@t about stuff but tried to have an opinion voted lately? Remember this??? I know how badly you want it to be vintage' date=' but if you ask anyone who knows these guitars on any forum on the internet, they will tell you the same things we are telling you... Please don't fall for it though...this sounds scammier than Nigeria.[/quote'] You had it exactly right, he's being scammed. Not just about the bogus label, but I wouldn't be surprised if the guitar itself was bogus. Numerous people have told him that, including you. Being nice ain't working, maybe a little tough love might stop him. But you're right, I shouldn't have been so mean. It is cool, he's getting the vintage guitar he so desperately wants, who am I destroy the illusion??? Besides, those scammers need to make a living too!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animalfarm Posted July 18, 2010 Share Posted July 18, 2010 JerryMac has given you good advice - please read the infoin link' date=' and he's right, BLACK is not a color option (see link). http://www.vintageguitars.org.uk/EpiphoneCasino.php [/quote'] As per the above link, under "Casino Timeline": 1997 Current reissue available in Cherry, Ebony, Natural and Cherry Sunburst. Korean made. Not 1960's USA. Thsi missing Serial Number is a bit odd, also. Serial number MAY be located on sticker inside body cavity, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bynapkinart Posted July 18, 2010 Share Posted July 18, 2010 haha of course i remembered, i was just pointing out that all we can do is tell him what we know and let him make his decision based on that (or not based on it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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