Dickey Betts Red Top

[cagamp1]

Does anyone want to see a FAKE Historic Gibson Dickey Betts Red Top?

 

I was just checking out EBAY and I like to watch for Gibson DBR guitars. I kept seeing this one pop up every so often and I see it has a “best offer” attached. So well, I’m thinking “what would the seller do if I low ball him?” But even low balling, you are talking several grand. So, I went to verify things by checking out the pictures a little more closely only to find what I am certain is a fake.

 

Well, they did do a great custom copy job. My point is that it is counterfeit and definitely not worth the price.

 

I would not buy a fake!

 

Check out this EBAY auction item:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibson-Dickey-Betts-Red-Top-MINTy-Case-COA-Les-Paul-316-/180584904202?pt=Guitar&hash=item2a0bb2f60a

new:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180598495071&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNARL:US:1123

 

Can anyone see the clues which tells you it’s a fake? I’d love to hear the comments.

[L5Larry]

So well, I’m thinking “what would the seller do if I low ball him?” But even low balling, you are talking several grand.

 

 

If you pay ANYTHING for a counterfeit Gibson, YOU are part of the problem.

[cagamp1]

If you pay ANYTHING for a counterfeit Gibson, YOU are part of the problem.

 

 

Sorry, I should have stated more. I meant low-ball if it were real. I would not buy a counterfeit.

[cagamp1]

Hi Joe Japan. Do you know Meestursparkle? Well I hope he didn't get had on this guitar.

 

No funny business or revenge. One thing you can do is ask him where the second set of covers are located? He did not show them in the pictures. If it is authentic he would know exactly what I am refering to and would have them as well as show them in the pictures.

[cagamp1]

It's been relisted at a new link:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibson-Dickey-Betts-Red-Top-MINTy-Case-COA-Les-Paul-316-/180598495071?pt=Guitar&hash=item2a0c82575f

 

 

Check out the real one, if you can see it, that sold for $4200.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230560015938&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[Mr. Natural]

Does anyone want to see a FAKE Historic Gibson Dickey Betts Red Top?

 

I was just checking out EBAY and I like to watch for Gibson DBR guitars... Can anyone see the clues which tells you it’s a fake? I’d love to hear the comments.

 

I'm not familiar with the Dickey Betts model, so I don't know what to look for, but Joe Yoshida seems to be about as knowledgeable as anybody in the Forums and has very good reputation.

 

What are the clues that tell you that it's a fake? I'm interested to hear your comments.

[cagamp1]

I'm not familiar with the Dickey Betts model, so I don't know what to look for, but Joe Yoshida seems to be about as knowledgeable as anybody in the Forums and has very good reputation.

 

What are the clues that tell you that it's a fake? I'm interested to hear your comments.

 

Here are just a couple of things suspicious and a hard clue. I gave these answers to someone else as starters who asked similar questions.

 

Look at a lot of LP's and notice the wood grain direction. Most luthiers, especially with high quality guitars, will select or cut the wood grain in one general direction making the neck and body back sort of match. The cut on that body was not what you normally see in my opinion. The wood itself also looked a little too dark. It may be a different mahogany species or just a different finish.

 

Now, this is DBR 031. The early guitars like that one came with "care packages." What collector would loose these items or not show them in pictures. The items were stuff like matching picks, a chord, a polishing cloth and stuff like that.

 

And I'll give one hard piece of evidence. The signature on the back of the headstock is the wrong color.

[CR9]

Here are just a couple of things suspicious and a hard clue. I gave these answers to someone else as starters who asked similar questions.

 

Look at a lot of LP's and notice the wood grain direction. Most luthiers, especially with high quality guitars, will select or cut the wood grain in one general direction making the neck and body back sort of match. The cut on that body was not what you normally see in my opinion. The wood itself also looked a little too dark. It may be a different mahogany species or just a different finish.

 

Now, this is DBR 031. The early guitars like that one came with "care packages." What collector would loose these items or not show them in pictures. The items were stuff like matching picks, a chord, a polishing cloth and stuff like that.

 

And I'll give one hard piece of evidence. The signature on the back of the headstock is the wrong color.

 

I am not sticking up for the auction or the seller but just throwing out my opinions. Joe is almost always correct. (allowing for a mistake that we all may make along the way)

The little bit of grain I see on the back and the neck look pretty normal to me. I can't see any wood that goes the wrong direction. The color may be somewhat off due to lighting. I know several major collectors that can never find the "case candy" when they want to sell something, but finding a package to throw in should not have been a problem. the original collector or the person selling it could have misplaced the case candy. I have also seen many that either did not get the case candy from the dealer or it was left out by Gibson. Gibson ran out of care packages off and on all the time. Not a real real clue to point to a fake.

 

What photos of the signature? There are none in the auction at that link. As far as the signature being the wrong color, I don't see one in the ebay auction photos... Knowing how things go at the Custom Shop, it is completely possible that Dickie came in to sign a few and just picked up the marker that was on the bench without thinking that the color would matter. Just grab the marker and start signing. Usually this is done while several people are talking with him and may cause some distraction. I'm not saying that is the case, but by saying the signature is the wrong color and it is not even in the auction would point to some inside information that we do not know at this time. It could be that the photos were pulled or possibly the OP is trying to discredit the auction for some other reason by calling it a fake. It could also be an attempt to spam the auction so more of us look at it......

 

I am not saying it is a fake or the real deal, but I can't find any indications that point to a fake but we are dealing with photos and do not have it right in front of us. The person selling it is known for having a lot of high dollar Gibsons that are the real deal. I just don't see any hard evidence at it being a fake.

[cagamp1]

I have nothing against Meestursparkle or Joe...don't know them or him. I hope he did not get ripped on this one.

 

I'm not trying to discredit anyone. I am pointing out that anyone interested in this guitar should be questioning its authenticity and price.

 

The mention of the body back wood and grain is not a total deal breaker. It is an odd cut. The wood looks a shade too dark. It would be best to see it in person. The pictures aren't helping the situation here, especially at that price for a guitar.

 

Again, where are the care package items?

 

The scribbling on the back of the headstock is a "Dickey Betts" signature. It's upside down in the pictures. Dickey Betts did not sign every headstock. Those are signature copies applied to the back of each headstock. It is the wrong color.

[jamman]

I have bought from this seller. As to is this guitar a fake or not I cann't say. As I know nothing about the DB LP's .What I do know is that the

Matsumoto I bought was verified by Gibson as being real.It came with 2 COA's . This was done though many pics sent to Gibson.I have since communicated with the seller about other things and he or she seems to be on the up and up. If I were to find something I liked from this seller I would have no problem buying for him again.He also has a guaranty , so if you don't like it you can send it back and get a full refund ,less shipping. My guitar was in my house in 4 days from Japan. no bs there. Check the feedback I've yet to see a bad 1.I have no tyes to this seller and am only giving my opinion.i think he sells good guitars and i would be suprised if he had a fake. BTW,

If you look at all the pics there are photos of 3-4 sigs from DB. but they are difficult tell if they are real. both Auctions show sigs. and unless you know DB sig. one would be hard pressed to know the difference. And i'm no exspert on sigs. Take alook for youself. The color looks about right considering the flash and possible exsposure compinsation , which can make a photo look lighter or darker. You could always copy the pics ,send them to Gibson for there opinion.

The care package makes it fake? no polishing cloth? please... I just bought a MM 60 01 with no original case , no COA and it's as real has it gets. Yes the back is different, but what a nice piece of wood it is.

[cagamp1]

Jamman

 

I stated that I have nothing against the seller. I hope he/she did not get ripped off.

 

The topic is only for this one guitar. I have done research, talked to Gibson before and studied these over the years watching for them. I own one. I only mentioned a few incorrect things about this guitar. There are other issues with this guitar which I am not going to indulge. The thing is that a buyer (or seller) should be warned and takes the time to verify.

 

And, as I can see, you know nothing of the care package. It's not just any care package.

 

It also seems as if these post are only coming from people who deal with the seller and not anyone interested in an actual Dickey Betts Redtop.

[CR9]

It also seems as if these post are only coming from people who deal with the seller and not anyone interested in an actual Dickey Betts Redtop.

 

It may seem that way to you, but I have watched for one for years but have not gotten one yet. I am very familiar with them and I have even played #001 (Dickey's personal guitar) and discussed it with Dickey at the Custom Shop when the model was introduced. The backs vary in grain and in color from the ones I have seen in person so that is not a concern to me. I have never dealt with the seller but the last 3 DB red tops I have looked at did not have a care package. That is a minor issue as I am looking for the guitar. Granted the complete "package" as shipped would be better. Financial problems are the only reason I am not bidding on this at this time. I am more interested in them than you may seem to know. Please inform me of the "other issues" with this one so I can watch for them when I do get the funds to buy. I know Dickey's personal red top reissue had a HUGE neck on it.

[cagamp1]

It may seem that way to you, but I have watched for one for years but have not gotten one yet. I am very familiar with them and I have even played #001 (Dickey's personal guitar) and discussed it with Dickey at the Custom Shop when the model was introduced. The backs vary in grain and in color from the ones I have seen in person so that is not a concern to me. I have never dealt with the seller but the last 3 DB red tops I have looked at did not have a care package. That is a minor issue as I am looking for the guitar. Granted the complete "package" as shipped would be better. Financial problems are the only reason I am not bidding on this at this time. I am more interested in them than you may seem to know. Please inform me of the "other issues" with this one so I can watch for them when I do get the funds to buy. I know Dickey's personal red top reissue had a HUGE neck on it.

 

 

Did you look at the one Picknslide had on ebay. It is real, was a later serial#, did not have the care package and sold for $4200. Compare the pictures and you should see cosmetic differences. If you do see the differences, don't tell everyone. The care package doesn't make the guitar. Yes, those guitars had thicker necks...it's modeled after the original old stock. I'd say keep saving and looking...you won't pick one up for less than $4k lately. And at that price verify, verify, verify.

[Wildbird5150]

The only question you need to ask yourself is why somebody would spend so much time on making a fraudulent DB Les Paul? Most of the kids these days don't even know who this guy is. The guitar looks very good and it looks genuine. A few flaws here and there is just a few flaws, ya know, bad day on the factory, the guy who was assembling it had a hangover or bad sex, or even a worse scenario he had a hangover and no sex for years. I would understand the purpose of a fake ZW Les Paul, I have even seen a few on the eBay: Buzzsaw and a Goldie that looked damn good because these guitars were Gibsons but refinished to meet the desired purpose. Trust me, there is no one out there making fake DB Les Pauls, Allman's Les Pauls or Rossington's Les Pauls and SGs.

[cagamp1]

The only question you need to ask yourself is why somebody would spend so much time on making a fraudulent DB Les Paul? Most of the kids these days don't even know who this guy is. The guitar looks very good and it looks genuine. A few flaws here and there is just a few flaws, ya know, bad day on the factory, the guy who was assembling it had a hangover or bad sex, or even a worse scenario he had a hangover and no sex for years. I would understand the purpose of a fake ZW Les Paul, I have even seen a few on the eBay: Buzzsaw and a Goldie that looked damn good because these guitars were Gibsons but refinished to meet the desired purpose. Trust me, there is no one out there making fake DB Les Pauls, Allman's Les Pauls or Rossington's Les Pauls and SGs.

 

 

Ok, if you say so. Kid's aren't buying this. But unsuspectiing people looking for a nice or collectable guitar just might buy it. Let's see, make a cnc copy painted up nice. Those sell for what, less than $300. Invest in a few decals, special pieces of hardware and a knock off case, another $100 or so. Now put it out for sale at $5000. Hmmm??? $4500+ profit...not bad. Some people do far worse for a lot less!

[ctkarslake]

Ok, if you say so. Kid's aren't buying this. But unsuspectiing people looking for a nice or collectable guitar just might buy it. Let's see, make a cnc copy painted up nice. Those sell for what, less than $300. Invest in a few decals, special pieces of hardware and a knock off case, another $100 or so. Now put it out for sale at $5000. Hmmm??? $4500+ profit...not bad. Some people do far worse for a lot less!

 

Why on earth are YOU being so elusive? If you have something to educate us all that a in the dark as far as you are concerned why are you keeping it to yourself. The guitar is genuine, that's all there is to it. Until I hear or see anything to the contrary I agree with the others that have as much before me.

 

Lets see the reason or STFU. Let's hear it Mr. Obscura.

[cagamp1]

Why on earth are YOU being so elusive? If you have something to educate us all that a in the dark as far as you are concerned why are you keeping it to yourself. The guitar is genuine, that's all there is to it. Until I hear or see anything to the contrary I agree with the others that have as much before me.

 

Lets see the reason or STFU. Let's hear it Mr. Obscura.

 

 

I don't think I'm obscure or trying to be. I believe I gave enough information to those who are willing to do their homework. Honestly, any guitar at that price, I would rather see first hand. I will tell you one other thing which I have mentioned to another...every custom decal/marking has something wrong with it.

Or, well maybe the neck was replaced...the price does not reflect that though. I really don't want to tip of counterfieters.

[meestursparkle]

I don't think I'm obscure or trying to be. I believe I gave enough information to those who are willing to do their homework. Honestly, any guitar at that price, I would rather see first hand. I will tell you one other thing which I have mentioned to another...every custom decal/marking has something wrong with it.

Or, well maybe the neck was replaced...the price does not reflect that though. I really don't want to tip of counterfieters.

 

 

Cagamp1,

 

That guitar is not a fake and if you took a few minutes to call or email Gibson with a link they would tell you as much.

 

Just the fact that you mention the care kit shows how much you really are stretching.

 

What you are doing is slander. Pure and simple.

 

BTW Did you know that there are hundreds of people with actual knowledge of Gibsons who comb ebay every day looking for fake Gibsons and that a “real” fake Gibson would not last a day …let alone being relisted twice. Especially with 70 or so hi-def pictures.

 

 

 

BTW Is there a mod here who can send the link to customer service? Seems to be the only responsible thing for an official Gibson run forum to do.

[meestursparkle]

To those who might imply that it is wrong (“dirty”) to resell guitars from Japan and that you should go through a “real” dealer in Japan:

 

Did you know that many of the ”real” dealers in Japan regularly travel to the USA and buy guitars from guitar stores? Just like I do here. They sell them for a profit…..just like I do…just like your green grocer sells for profit.

 

Did you know that many of the “real” dealers here buy guitars on yahoo and resell them? And that they travel around the country to pawn shops and other music stores? For the record I have never bought a guitar for resale on yahooauctions. I go out and deal with the dealers…face to face, store to store. They all know me by name. They like my business. In fact they love it. The people I buy from love to sell to me AND the folks who buy from me love to buy from me too. I fail to see what is so "dirty" about it. BTW To suggest that everything here in Japan sells for 2x as much on ebay is totally absurd.

 

Did you know that ALL the “real” dealers in Japan buy guitars from individuals….basically giving them half of what they are worth…For the record we have never YET (but times are changing) bought a guitar in Japan from an individual. So when you try to make out “real” dealers as saints you might want to think about that.

 

Very few of the "real" dealers here have the international shipping and packing experience we do (they are used to very safe courier system in Japan)AND they often require bank wire which can be seen as having no recourse for the buyer. Thus we have many serious collectors who pay us a premium to buy from stores for them....and these are often stores that will answer emails from and sell to overseas customers!!

 

And finally…yes, we do often ask a lot of money for our guitars! But just because we ask does not mean we receive. In fact…we often get less for our guitars because we are in Japan and not in the USA. Ultimately the market sets the prices and we have the feedback to show that our customers are some of the most satisfied around.

[duane v]

Cagamp1,

 

That guitar is not a fake and if you took a few minutes to call or email Gibson with a link they would tell you as much.

 

Just the fact that you mention the care kit shows how much you really are stretching.

 

What you are doing is slander. Pure and simple.

 

BTW Did you know that there are hundreds of people with actual knowledge of Gibsons who comb ebay every day looking for fake Gibsons and that a “real” fake Gibson would not last a day …let alone being relisted twice. Especially with 70 or so hi-def pictures.

 

 

 

BTW Is there a mod here who can send the link to customer service? Seems to be the only responsible thing for an official Gibson run forum to do.

 

I'm going to lock this thread for now....

 

To me this guitar appears to be very authentic.

[Gibson CS]

I'm going to lock this thread for now....

 

To me this guitar appears to be very authentic.

 

Yep, the pics do indeed appear to be of an authentic DB redtop Les Paul. Thread will stay locked.