The J-45 is not an entry level guitar?

[onewilyfool]

Even recordings on a cell phone or cam corder would give us some idea of what the guitar sounded like......as a matter of fact...I am constantly surprised how my guitar sounds when recorded.....cause I usually only hear my guitar from the player's side....it is a great learning device!!!

[EuroAussie]

I think I do understand what you mean Mojo. Ill try to record that riff tomorrow and post it here, so we can compare. cheers.

 

As ever your CW sounds great, EA, but to me that's not quite the thump, but something else. I reckon your Aaron has more of it. Would love to hear you re-record this track on the Aaron and with a heavy pick (you know you want something harder for your SJ, so that you don't wear those medium picks out!). That would thump, I think. Righteously so.

[EuroAussie]

OK, Mojo ... you talked me into it, I managed to do a one take of a few bars of the track with SJ before Mrs EA hit the sack

 

Here is the link: http://soundcloud.com/euroaussie/pj-sj-sample

 

I think youre right, there is a more pronounced 'thump' with the SJ, its also recorded with a thicker picker. I like using a lighter pick on the CW to get that Hummingbird lushness.

 

Your thoughts on the SJ sample ?

 

As ever your CW sounds great, EA, but to me that's not quite the thump, but something else. I reckon your Aaron has more of it. Would love to hear you re-record this track on the Aaron and with a heavy pick (you know you want something harder for your SJ, so that you don't wear those medium picks out!). That would thump, I think. Righteously so.

[Mojorule]

Yay EA. That's just the ticket. Thanks for the tune before bedtime! To me that is thump, and it is even more recognizable when you throw in some strumming on the higher strings in contrast. Thump and growl. Your SJ is shaping up just beautifully. A really good buy, I think.

[EuroAussie]

Thanks Mojo, yeah, this SJ is definitely a keeper and it excites me to know that it will just get better with age ! :-)

 

Yay EA. That's just the ticket. Thanks for the tune before bedtime! To me that is thump, and it is even more recognizable when you throw in some strumming on the higher strings in contrast. Thump and growl. Your SJ is shaping up just beautifully. A really good buy, I think.

[Rambler]

Hersch "I think a lot of folks that make those statements and talk about Gibson quality are people who have never owned a Gibson acoustic." Tedmac: "I agree with that"

 

Should probably let this go but I cant imagine who this could be directed at in this thread, most of us doing the talking have plenty of experience with the brand.

 

EDIT: disclaimer -- Guys, I missed the context (directed @AGF). My big mouth! (

[stein]

The great part about this thread, is if you can't have a -45 right now, at least you can get some sweet fat Gibson tone.

[Guth]

Well I don't mind sticking my neck on the block.

 

I bought a J45 standard this year and here is one of my test recordings, there are mistakes but it was recorded to see what the guitar sounded like and to learn how to record it as well. I like to use a reference point like vocals with the guitar as well. This was recorded at home in my office come music room.

 

My notes say

 

two guitar tracks from one take, one from mic, one from pickup, delay, reverb and compression on guitar, no EQ on guitar, as it was recorded

 

Hey Madman,

 

Thanks for sharing your clips! Nicely done. I also checked out the other clip that was posted on the same page "j45 tryout". I like the recorded tone of the guitar better on this track, although the vocals had a bit of a cavernous effect going on. Must have varied your setup/settings on this track.

 

I can appreciate the "office come music room". I think I'll have to start referring to my bedroom as the "plush music room/recording studio complete with bed".

 

All the best,

Guth

[Guth]

OK, Mojo ... you talked me into it, I managed to do a one take of a few bars of the track with SJ before Mrs EA hit the sack

 

Here is the link: http://soundcloud.com/euroaussie/pj-sj-sample

 

I think youre right, there is a more pronounced 'thump' with the SJ, its also recorded with a thicker picker. I like using a lighter pick on the CW to get that Hummingbird lushness.

 

Your thoughts on the SJ sample ?

 

EuroAussie,

 

Thanks for sharing your clips as well — good stuff! It would be really interesting to hear the CW and the SJ recorded back-to-back with the same room, recording setup, same pick, etc.. (What are you using to record your guitar?)

 

While it is impossible to get an exact replication of the tone of our guitars with these recordings, it is possible to more or less compare how two guitars sound relative to one another when they are both recorded in the same way.

 

All the best,

Guth

[Guth]

...I disagree 100% BK. I genuinely believe that its damned near impossible to judge a guitars tone from a sh***y youtube video with such a horrendous recording like this one. It honestly sounds like he did it on his Cell phone to my ears....

 

Like BK said, I just referenced that clip as an example. Whether or not that particular J-45 actually sounds like that in person doesn't matter. I was trying to refer specifically to that "recorded tone" as an example of how many of the Gibson acoustics I've played sound to me in real life — very muted almost lifeless. Or to use your words, many Gibsons that I've played have the sonic quality of a cell phone.

 

I'm definitely not saying that's how all of them sound (which should be obvious from the number of great sounding Gibson clips provided throughout this thread). Just trying to illustrate the irony that I count certain Gibson acoustics to be at the very top of the sonic spectrum amongst all acoustic guitars out there given my preferences, along with the notion that for me, many Gibson acoustics are near the very bottom of the sonic spectrum, again given my personal preferences.

[EuroAussie]

Hi Guth,

 

I actually did such a test 2 weeks ago here when i did my own 'pick the guitar' pepsi challenge.

 

In that case I recorded all 5 of my guitars (including 3 Gibsons), mainly to see who can pick the Gibbys from the non Gibbys.

 

Anyway, it was recorded under same conditions, same song, same pick, all the same.

 

Recorded on a 'snowball' condenser mike into Audacity and then processed into mp3, no additional effects or post prodn.

 

Listening back to it again, a mistake i made is that i recorded this while sitting next to my computer desk and there is excessive boom as the guitar was too close to my desk. When i recorded last nights sample I was in a different position (sofa) and I thought the recroding was much cleaner.

 

Here is the recording from 2 weeks ago:

 

 

 

 

EuroAussie,

 

Thanks for sharing your clips as well — good stuff! It would be really interesting to hear the CW and the SJ recorded back-to-back with the same room, recording setup, same pick, etc.. (What are you using to record your guitar?)

 

While it is impossible to get an exact replication of the tone of our guitars with these recordings, it is possible to more or less compare how two guitars sound relative to one another when they are both recorded in the same way.

 

All the best,

Guth

[Guth]

Hi Guth,

 

I actually did such a test 2 weeks ago here when i did my own 'pick the guitar' pepsi challenge.

 

In that case I recorded all 5 of my guitars (including 3 Gibsons)...

 

Oh boy, it's going to take me a while to digest all of that audio. Thanks!

[Mojorule]

Should probably let this go but I cant imagine who this could be directed at in this thread, most of us doing the talking have plenty of experience with the brand. Also, it's the tone that's typically heard in these parts.

 

I don't think these comments were directed at anybody here, Rambler. At least I didn't read them as such. They seem more like an explanation of what goes on over at AGF, since the vituperative Gibson knocking there was mentioned earlier in the thread. I think it's quite clear to all that the more critical voices here also love their Gibsons, but have really also had some less wonderful experiences with the brand. I think we're also learning just how varied our expectations of Gibsons can be, and how far the Gibson variety/inconsistency (delete as appropriate) can actually be a major advantage, provided the right variants get to the right people. Perhaps the Forum should include a swap your J45s thread!

 

Interested to know, btw, how you assess the two SJs on the Tricolorpicks/Original Formula Music site. Do you consider the 2003 to be 'Martinized' (or whatever)? Or is the difference other for you? For sure there is a difference!

[EuroAussie]

Yes, thats exactly how I interpreted the comment. Not aimed at any body here on this forum but mainly on the AGF.

 

I also feel the same way. It was interesting, I ran the Thomann jingle test also on the AGF, but in the poll to choose overall one favourite guitar I left one possible answer as being 'All the Gibbys sound like plastic boxes' just to give the Gibby bashers a bit of fun, and guess what ... this came equal first together with the AL SJ.

 

Now, I know my Gibbys dont sound like plastic boxes, and Im also guessing there is a pretty decent amount of Gibby envy playing here out on the AGF.

 

I don't think these comments were directed at anybody here, Rambler. At least I didn't read them as such. They seem more like an explanation of what goes on over at AGF, since the vituperative Gibson knocking there was mentioned earlier in the thread. I think it's quite clear to all that the more critical voices here also love their Gibsons, but have really also had some less wonderful experiences with the brand. I think we're also learning just how varied our expectations of Gibsons can be, and how far the Gibson variety/inconsistency (delete as appropriate) can actually be a major advantage, provided the right variants get to the right people. Perhaps the Forum should include a swap your J45s thread!

 

Interested to know, btw, how you assess the two SJs on the Tricolorpicks/Original Formula Music site. Do you consider the 2003 to be 'Martinized' (or whatever)? Or is the difference other for you? For sure there is a difference!

[ParlourMan]

On the AGF Gibson's are "inconsistent" "over-priced" and "dull" whereas many other hand-built guitars are "unique one of a kind instruments" and have a "great thud to them" and are "great value for such a build" despite being twice the price of a G-branded guitar. If it looks, smells and tastes like an agenda, it's a reasonably safe bet to call it one ;)

 

Each to their own, I do have other brands myself so I'm not strictly brand-loyal, I just happen to prefer the acoustic sound of Gibson's.

[Madman_Greg]

Hey Madman,

 

Thanks for sharing your clips! Nicely done. I also checked out the other clip that was posted on the same page "j45 tryout". I like the recorded tone of the guitar better on this track, although the vocals had a bit of a cavernous effect going on. Must have varied your setup/settings on this track.

 

All the best,

Guth

 

 

Guth, the first recording was done with the strings from the factory and recorded in a similar way to the second. The second has the following strings http://www.thomastik-infeld.com/ which I think have a bit more depth and a fuller sound, but I am not sure suit the J45 totally yet.

 

As I have only had the guitar since the beginning of Feb and I have yet to have it setup, the strings I end up having on the guitar permanently will probably change. But they do have a massive affect on tonality

 

Madman_Greg

[Rambler]

I don't think these comments were directed at anybody here, Rambler. {I did/big oops]...anyway ..Interested to know how you assess the two SJs on the Tricolorpicks/Original Formula Music site. Do you consider the 2003 to be 'Martinized' (or whatever)?

 

Well, the older one has more character. I can't nail the newer one. Its more generic somehow, less defined, more diffuse. I'd relate that to being less dry and punchy (what I associate with vintage tone). Don't know I'd call that Martinized exactly, maybe a contemporary take on Gibson tone with a hedge more sustain and bloom to the notes. Something like that. I wish i could hear those 2 by themselves (as opposed to the same lead break he takes on every tune).

[Madman_Greg]

Yours seems to have a more ringing, almost bell-like voice, but I can't work out how much of that is due to the delay, reverb and compression that you added.

 

Mojorule.

 

I hoped you like the bell tone, its something I like personally, I assume you meant this was good ?

 

I bought this particular J45 is it sounded a little bit mellow to me which I liked

 

I obviously bought the J45 to play, well to get back into playing as I have been ill over the last few months and not really played much. I will primarily use this for recording at home, so hence my tests to see what it sounds like and get to grips with the best way to record it in my situation.

 

Now I do not have what I would call an ideal recording environment. I also only have budget equipment (cheap SE Electronics condenser microphone). An untreated room and the room is really quite small so the room sound can impart quite a boxy sound to vocals guitars etc... So I hve to record acoustic guitars with the mic quite close, to try and minimise the affect of the room, typically nine inches away pointed direct at where the neck meets the body.

 

In the spirit of sharing here is the recording at various stages of mixing / adding effects this is the mic'd guitar only, not the pickup

 

1) guitar only microphone no pickup

 

2) channel compression added

 

3) channel compression plus parallel compression

 

4) delay added to 3)

 

5) reverb added to 4)

 

6) master buss processing added to 5)

 

7) Guitar and Vox fully mixed, as posted before this is mic and pickup input for the guitar and all the above effects

 

Madman_Greg

[Mojorule]

Well, the older one has more character. I can't nail the newer one. Its more generic somehow, less defined, more diffuse. I'd relate that to being less dry and punchy (what I associate with vintage tone). Don't know I'd call that Martinized exactly, maybe a contemporary take on Gibson tone with a hedge more sustain and bloom to the notes. Something like that. I wish i could hear those 2 by themselves (as opposed to the same lead break he takes on every tune).

 

Thanks for the come-back Rambler. I'm definitely with you on the touch of extra sustain and bloom on the newer instrument, and would also agree that these attributes make it slightly more diffuse and less defined. To me that's a marginally warmer, jazzier sound, which I prefer ever so slightly. It works really well on that old jazz/pop standard that they do. I do find that it still has quite good definition though, plenty of thump, growl and crack (given that he really bangs out the licks with his plectrum, if it didn't have those characteristics, I would find his instrument a bit insipid). These traits not only make it sound like a (modern) slopeshoulder Gibson to me, but also give it a strong family resemblance to the older instrument despite the obvious differences. Not sure that it is more generic for me as a result, though. To me it's a superb example of the Gibson sound that I was looking for and feel that I've pretty well found. I've never got bass, middle or treble tones like those out of a Martin or Taylor, and I've never met that jazzy warmth in other brands either. So while it sounds different from its ancestor, the differences take it away from other makes rather than towards them to my ears. I really love the tone of the older SJ too, mind, and it is indeed a very special guitar. But were it my instrument it would be just a touch too dry for me to have it as my only guitar. I don't think it would do the jazz standard as well, though it probably does have the edge for all his lead lines. Sounds more like a specialist lead instrument, while the 2003 would be more of an all-rounder for me. But that's speculation, and I would be intrigued to know how they both sound fingerpicked. I found those videos really helpful in deciding what I wanted in an acoustic, and I really like his playing, but I agree that it would have been nice to hear the two guitars back-to-back in a wider variety of styles. I use a pick sometimes, and a heavy one at that, so I want to be able to get lead tones like that, but mostly I just use my fingers, and while I can imagine how both guitars might sound fingerpicked, it would have been nice to actually hear them in that context. As you point out, his playing can be repetitive - it leaves me impressed, but after a while also feeling that I'm stuck inside Groundhog Day.

 

Mojorule.

 

I hoped you like the bell tone, its something I like personally, I assume you meant this was good ?

 

Yes, Greg. I do like that tone. I did mean that it was good. It's not quite what I wanted or get from my SJ, but it is a very nice sound. Ideal for strumming, and great for a lot of other things, without being the same as the square-shoulder Gibson sound which also has that reputation.

 

I bought this particular J45 is it sounded a little bit mellow to me which I liked

 

Yes it sounds very mellow, and while I wanted something more grunting and growling from my guitar, it is nice to hear that sort of smoothness from a similar instrument.

 

I obviously bought the J45 to play, well to get back into playing as I have been ill over the last few months and not really played much. I will primarily use this for recording at home, so hence my tests to see what it sounds like and get to grips with the best way to record it in my situation.

 

Now I do not have what I would call an ideal recording environment. I also only have budget equipment (cheap SE Electronics condenser microphone). An untreated room and the room is really quite small so the room sound can impart quite a boxy sound to vocals guitars etc... So I hve to record acoustic guitars with the mic quite close, to try and minimise the affect of the room, typically nine inches away pointed direct at where the neck meets the body.

 

The recording sounds pretty good though. Better than I can manage with even more limited equipment. I'm interested to know how much of the mellowness on the recording is due to a more sustaining, but initially less aggressive bass response on your guitar itself, and how much of it is due a tendency to filter the bass out on the part of your mic.

 

In the spirit of sharing here is the recording at various stages of mixing / adding effects this is the mic'd guitar only, not the pickup

 

1) guitar only microphone no pickup

 

2) channel compression added

 

3) channel compression plus parallel compression

 

4) delay added to 3)

 

5) reverb added to 4)

 

6) master buss processing added to 5)

 

7) Guitar and Vox fully mixed, as posted before this is mic and pickup input for the guitar and all the above effects

 

Madman_Greg

 

This break-down was really brilliant, and very informative. I didn't acutally notice that much difference from the two layers of compression. Something yes, but almost more the reduction of extraneous noise than anything else. Although very subtle, your layering of delay and reverb had more of an effect to my ears. But the most notable effect was the mixing at stage 7. That added more bass into the clip for me. What I notice about the basic guitar sound before effects are added is that while it is already rather bell-like (strong, ringing trebles), it also has a punchy quality to it (another often-cited Gibson/J45 trait). Perhaps the mids are a little bit more aggressive than in the final mix. The compression didn't really remove that quality, though it attenuated it ever so slightly. But the delay and reverb do smooth it out a bit more, emphasizing the bellish trebles. To my ears your guitar is not a thumper, but it is a consummate strummer. It also has a certain Gibson something in the mids which might not be growl, but is close to it. Very nice indeed, yet very different from the two SJs discussed with Rambler.

[Rambler]

As you point out, his playing can be repetitive - it leaves me impressed, but after a while also feeling that I'm stuck inside Groundhog Day.

Good one.

 

That dry tone is where I live. Was a little take aback to to hear Hawkins's example as 'awful'. Admittedly, it's not a Hummingbird. To each his own.

[Mojorule]

Good one.

 

That dry tone is where I live. Was a little take aback to to hear Hawkins's example as 'awful'. Admittedly, it's not a Hummingbird. To each his own.

 

I like Hawkins's 45, though actually not as much as Perkins's 1946 SJ. The SJ cracks more in the trebles, while the 45 sustains more. But I think that James Taylor's J50 may the best of the oldies here. That sound is closer to my modern preference, though indeed a touch drier. The compression sounds fuller on that 50, and I like that a lot.

[Madman_Greg]

Mojorule, some comments on your comments

 

But the most notable effect was the mixing at stage 7. That added more bass into the clip for me.

 

Let me explain, what is happening here. The clips through 1 to 6 are all the single input, mic'd guitar only. 7) adds the pickup input (same track / playing). The mic input has a different length of signal path compared to the pickup input. With the mic you have the guitar, then an air gap then the microphone then lead. With the pickup the signal length is different, i.e. shorter. So they are both the same signal but recorded at slightly different times due to the signal path length. Now it is possible to realign these in the recording program after the event. And as this can cause phase cancellation if the two signals are different, you can get frequency cancellation, which can suck the tone out of the recording due to the singanls being out of phase and cancelling frequencies. But in some cases the different in phase (i.e. time) can cause a pleasing effect, very simlar to phasing, this can be subtle but add depth to the overall recording. In a lot of cases you would try and correct this, but sometimes it sounds OK, which I thought it did. I guess the added bass will be the pickup signal

 

 

Perhaps the mids are a little bit more aggressive than in the final mix. The compression didn't really remove that quality, though it attenuated it ever so slightly.

 

Compressors can smooth things out as you noticed, really depends how you use them. I find that parallel compression adds a bit of presence / grunt to the overall sound.

 

Also the master buss processing will have a compressor / limiter as well and I think I used a little overall reverb and a stero widener to give bit more stereo width to the mix. I would need to go check on this to be sure..

 

 

I think you under estimate how cheaply you can get to do some home recording, a 2 channel USB sound interface can be relatively cheap and you can get microphones for around the same price. Now this is never going to be the same as a studio, but it gets you going and making some reasonable recordings and as you probably have speaker or headpones, you can add studio monitors over time or decent headphones. Plus there is also the REAPER Digital Audio Workstation (recording programme) that is free to try (fully functional for ever) and only 40$ at the moment and completes very well with high end commercial products.

 

Madman_Greg