ShredAstaire Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Shred, Do you mean by looking at a score and knowing the key of it, or by hearing a piece and working it out? or both? Cheers I'm talking about hearing it...i think thats a good start. Eventually i'd like to be able to see it in a score but for now, just hearing it would be helpful methinks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I'm talking about hearing it...i think thats a good start. Eventually i'd like to be able to see it in a score but for now, just hearing it would be helpful methinks... Hearing with an instrument to hand presumably? This is more aural training than anything, I think I get what you wish to know now! Have you tried the Bellowhead song yet? If so what was your answer and how did you personally work out the key? Cheers By the way I screen shot this from the Trinity guildhall Grade 6 past paper section. Grade 6 is advanced, but it deals with many of the grey areas the thread has bought up including the section on accidentals and how to define a key and also write within specified keys. On the subject of keys, Andy said earlier that a key the key of C for example, has to have just notes from that key be truly that key, this is true in a very black and white way (no puns Damian), but accidentals can colour the music and not point to another key, but just be chromaticism! which is completely different from an implied other key by the use of shaps/flats etc. This is explained through out graded theory papers but I can explain too if there is a specific example. Something to listen out for too are the cadences at the end of the phrases. Often they will end a piece in the respective key or as in an interrupted cadence which will point to a key change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted June 3, 2011 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 As A continuation of my previous post... I also want to be clear that it isn't my intention for this post to be "Andy" teaches theory post, it is open to all who have advice, ( excluding the you don't need to know theory conversation) tips, Shortcuts, instructions, ways of looking at things etc.. I may post alot but it is only from my perspective and the way I see, hear, teach, learn, etc... There might be some redundancy but hopefully mostly in approach. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted June 3, 2011 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 Andy's take on music Theory Part-1 So I would like to kind of make a restart from here. When I first started the post I was just dumping what I know in my mind into words and didn't really consider how or where it go from there. So to begin again I think it might be good to explain my "Theory" on Theory. First of all "Theory" is just as it implies. In "Theory" if you do this and or that, you will end up with some result that should be for the most part consistent. One thing that a lot of people disagree on is "Rules". So I will no longer refer to "Rules" of Theory but more "Guidelines" and "General Agreements" that people follow. I will digress to the "There are no rules in music" mind set. Theory in its base form is just a set of "Guide lines" and "Accepted" agreements that are the bases of communicating music through written, verbal, and notational formats. If we didn't have these foundational guide lines and accepted agreements it would be extremely difficult for musicians to play together or communicate what they want to play or how to play it. We utilize theory everyday. What time is it???? Time is a theory that we have assigned a value to and agreed it is X. Somebody had to propose this and people had to agree and accept it or we would never be able to get together. Time is also a theory that we manipulate ( Day light Savings Time). Language its self is based on Theory. At some point people came up with words, then an alphabet, and then a structure for putting words together. One example of theory that had to be agreed on is what is the pitch of the tone we call A? Somebody at some point had to agree that a Frequency that is vibrating/osccilating at 440hz per second will be Standard Concert Pitch A. If no one could agree then there is no starting point for two people to play together.... Another point I would like to make is almost all of us know "some music theory" If you know the names of the notes on the open Strings of the guitar you know some theory, If you can play ( insert chord name here) and know it is that chord then you know some theory. If you know at the very least the the natural notes in music are ABCDEFG again,.... Theory. A second point, even if you don't know anymore than these few things and can play at some level you are applying theory, you just don't realize it. Don't be fooled by the guys that say "Oh I don't know any theory" B.S. They may not know it deeply or realize they know it but they do. I just watched a clip on you tube where George Lynch and Dave Nivarro are talking and George and Dave both say how they don't know any theory. George says he couldn't play a major scale and maybe he can't by using the term major scale.... The funny thing was about a minute later they are riffing out and either George or Dave says something like "oh I like going to a Major 3rd there". ???? Uh .... That's theory dude... maybe not realized but theory none the less... To be continued..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted June 3, 2011 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 Andy's Take on Music Theory - Part 2 Naming notes is the first step... In order to understand and get anything out of music theory you have to at least be willing to accept and understand some basic premises and guidelines. Have faith and just go with it it for now..... So back to the very very beginning - There are 12 Tones in music There are 7 notes in music which are ABCDEFG There are 5 notes that have two Names called # or Flat b... 1st "deviation" from what I just told you ( technically B,C,E,F ) Can be referenced as flat or sharp in certain situations so technically there are 9 notes that could have 2 names. Going from a lower pitch to a higher pitch you are "raising" or making a note "Sharp" # So Starting from A and going up a half step (1 fret to the next) We would have the 12 notes A, A#, B,C, C#, D, D#, E,F, F#,G, G# back to A which is one "Octave" higher Going the reverse direction from a higher pitch note to a lower pitch note you are "lowering" the note or making it "flat b" So going backwards from the octave A note we would have A, Ab, G, Gb, F,E, Eb, D, Db, C,B, Ab, A Notice that B,C and E,F don't have a flat or sharp "Between" them. They are only 1 fret away from each other. As I mentioned earlier BC and EF could could be called flat or sharp in some situations. If you raise a B by a half step you could call C "B#" and if You lower a C by a half step you could call B "Cb" The same is true for E and F where E could be called "Fb" and F could be called " E# ". This usually only occurs when writing a key to maintain Alphabetical order either forwards or backwards. Considering the above... Remember the tone of "A" will always be written and called A, the tone of D will always be written and called D and the Tone of "G" will always be written and called G. This is because they are a whole step apart from the next natural note name both forwards and backwards. It helps to write out the notes in half steps. so you don't confuse note names when you skipping half and whole steps. So here you go A, A#/Bb, B (Cb , C (B#), D, D#/Eb, E (Fb, F (E#), F#/Gb, G, G#/Ab, A This is every tone used in music theory and its name ( names ) The green single notes will always be called their letter name and have their unique tone. The groups of letters in bold black is a single unique Tone that has 2 names, and the groups of letters in red will always have a single unique tone but could be called by 2 different names. I apologize for those of you who already know this stuff and for those of you who don't you need to learn this and understand it before moving on. Summary Just remember the notes are: A, A#/Bb, B,C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb. E, F, F#/Gb, G, G#/Ab, A Going higher in pitch = A,A#,B,C,C#,D,D#,E,F,F#,G,G#,A Going lower in pitch = A,Ab,G,Gb,F,E,Eb,D,Db,C,B,Bb,A playing or writing the notes in order of half steps is called "Chromatic" B,C and E,F are 1 fret apart ( Half step) To be Continued... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Andy's Take on Music Theory - Part 2 In order to understand and get anything out of music theory you have to at least be willing to accept and understand some basic premises and guidelines. Have faith and just go with it it for now..... So back to the very very beginning - There are 12 Tones in music There are 7 natural tones/notes in music which are ABCDEFG There are 5 Accidental notes ( notes that are called # or Flat b... I have no clue as why they are called "Accidental" 1st "deviation" from what I just told you ( technically B,C,E,F ) Could be considered an accidental as well as a natural (I will explain later) Going from a lower pitch to a higher pitch you are "raising" or making a note "Sharp" # So Starting from A and going up a half step (1 fret to the next) We would have the 12 notes A, A#, B,C, C#, D, D#, E,F, F#,G, G# back to A which is one "Octave" higher Going the reverse direction from a higher pitch note to a lower pitch note you are "lowering" the note or making it "flat b" So going backwards from the octave A note we would have A, Ab, G, Gb, F,E, Eb, D, Db, C,B, Ab, A Notice that B,C and E,F don't have a flat or sharp "Between" them. They are only 1 fret away from each other. As I mentioned earlier BC and EF could "Technically" be considered an "accidental" in some cases. If you raise a B by a half step you could call C "B#" and if You lower a C by a half step you could call B "Cb" The same is true for E and F where E could be called "Fb" and F could be called " E# ". This usually only occurs when writing a key to maintain Alphabetical order either forwards or backwards. Considering the above... Rember the tone of "A" will always be written and called A, the tone of D will always be written and called D and the Tone of "G" will always be written and called G. This is because they are a whole step apart from the next natural note name both forwards and backwards. It helps to write out the notes in half steps. so you don't confuse note names when you skipping half and whole steps. SO here you go A, A#/Bb, B (Cb , C (B#), D, D#/Eb, E (Fb, F (E#), F#/Gb, G, G#/Ab, A This is every tone used in music theory and its name ( names ) The green single notes will always be called their letter name and have their unique tone. The groups of letters in bold black is a single unique Tone that has 2 names, and the groups of letters in red will always have a single unique tone but could be called by 2 different names. I apologize for those of you who already know this stuff and for those of you who don't you need to learn this and understand it. To be Continued... UMM. I feel a little weird saying this, but you need to edit this one. An ACCIDENTAL is actually not a flat or sharp, or any note with a flat or sharp in front of it. It is a reference to a note in a given key. For example, When we have a key signature in a written peice of music, like G major (E minor) the key signature is written with one sharp. It is the F. The written music then will NOT have a sharp written in front of the F for the duration of that piece of music, as you are to read every F as an F sharp. The Key signature of one sharp on the F not only tells you it is in the key of G, it tells you that any time you see an F in that music, it is an F#. An ACCIDENTAL is when there IS a sharp of flat in front of the note. In the above example in the key of G where every F you play is F#, when you see a flat in front of it, it means to play an F INSTEAD OF F#, or is you see a sharp in front of it, you play a G (SHARPED 2x). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 UMM. I feel a little weird saying this, but you need to edit this one. An ACCIDENTAL is actually not a flat or sharp, or any note with a flat or sharp in front of it. It is a reference to a note in a given key. For example, When we have a key signature in a written peice of music, like G major (E minor) the key signature is written with one sharp. It is the F. The written music then will NOT have a sharp written in front of the F for the duration of that piece of music, as you are to read every F as an F sharp. The Key signature of one sharp on the F not only tells you it is in the key of G, it tells you that any time you see an F in that music, it is an F#. An ACCIDENTAL is when there IS a sharp of flat in front of the note. In the above example in the key of G where every F you play is F#, when you see a flat in front of it, it means to play an F INSTEAD OF F#, or is you see a sharp in front of it, you play a G (SHARPED 2x). Stein, Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying, you would have a 'natural' sign if the F's were not sharpened as in the signature of G major, not a f flat?? For example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Stein, Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying, you would have a 'natural' sign if the F's were not sharpened as in the signature of G major, not a f flat?? Correct. I have forgotten a lot, and to be truthful, never learned to sight read very well, and have also forgotton a lot of theory that I have not practiced or used a lot. Can you help us out here and maybe give us the proper use and terminology of an "accidental"? Are you well versed in theory and reading music to do that for us? I'm afraid if I did, it might be full of mistakes and make more work. And, I also don't think it is fair to put EVERYTHING on Andy's shoulders. I truly appreciate this thread and the efforts made. Anyone who puts forth the effort to teach others by generously taking the time deserves credit in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted June 3, 2011 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 UMM. I feel a little weird saying this, but you need to edit this one. An ACCIDENTAL is actually not a flat or sharp, or any note with a flat or sharp in front of it. It is a reference to a note in a given key. For example, When we have a key signature in a written peice of music, like G major (E minor) the key signature is written with one sharp. It is the F. The written music then will NOT have a sharp written in front of the F for the duration of that piece of music, as you are to read every F as an F sharp. The Key signature of one sharp on the F not only tells you it is in the key of G, it tells you that any time you see an F in that music, it is an F#. An ACCIDENTAL is when there IS a sharp of flat in front of the note. In the above example in the key of G where every F you play is F#, when you see a flat in front of it, it means to play an F INSTEAD OF F#, or is you see a sharp in front of it, you play a G (SHARPED 2x). Stein, Don't feel weird. You are technically correct in the realm of written notation. It is also common for the Flats and Sharps ( black keys) to be considered "Accidentals" on a piano and the white keys to be considered naturals. So lets just agree that there are notes that have only 1 name and notes that have two names and proceed from there?? I am not really interested in written notation theory so I would acquiesce this to someone who is and that can explain it. I also feel that I am not being technically accurate using the term "Tone" referring to the frequency and pitch that is a "Note" . I figured you would call me out on that. That is another topic that I will Acquiesce to someone else if they feel like explaining it. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Stein, I can live with that. You are technically correct in the realm of written notation. It is also common for the Flats and Sharps ( black keys) to be considered "Accidentals" on a piano and the white keys to be considered naturals. So lets just agree that there are notes that have only 1 name and notes that have two names and proceed from there?? I am not really interested in written notation theory so I would acquiesce this to someone who is and that can explain it. I also feel that I am not being technically accurate using the term "Tone" referring to the frequency and pitch that is a "Note" . I figured you would call me out on that. That is another topic that I will Acquiesce to someone else if they feel like explaining it. Andy Yea, but as you said before, we have to get down to the rules FIRST before we break them. There is reading music, and there is reading music. I wish MATT or someone who reads it could explain it better, BUT... For the sake of THEORY, I think we should say that an accidental is a note that is NOT contained in the original scale, rather than a sharp or flat. So, anything that is NOT any of the 7 notes in the scale we are referring to in any given key is an accidental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Correct. I have forgotten a lot, and to be truthful, never learned to sight read very well, and have also forgotton a lot of theory that I have not practiced or used a lot. No problem Can you help us out here and maybe give us the proper use and terminology of an "accidental"? Are you well versed in theory and reading music to do that for us? I'm afraid if I did, it might be full of mistakes and make more work. And, I also don't think it is fair to put EVERYTHING on Andy's shoulders. I understand and see your point An accidental is exactly what you say it is! i.e a note that is not in the key signature: but the written preference/convention for the use of naturals over sharps/flats when writing an F natural, is because a note that is the natural version of the key's specification, in the case of G major - F sharp. Usually if the notes of a key signature are to be performed as 'normal' notes (my term for naturals ) then the notes have accidentals opposed to sharps and flats. Matt p.s but not always..that is the fun of it all LMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I SO don't really have time to put into this too much, but let me try this: In any key, there are 8 notes. The last note is the octave, so there are 7 tones. In this way, there are then 7 NOTES for any given key. In a key, depending on the note chosen for the root note, there are seven MODES. Each mode will contain the same 7 notes as the origional key. A note that is not one of the 7 notes in a given scale is an ACCIDENTAL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I SO don't really have time to put into this too much, but let me try this: In any key, there are 8 notes. The last note is the octave, so there are 7 tones. In this way, there are then 7 NOTES for any given key. In a key, depending on the note chosen for the root note, there are seven MODES. Each mode will contain the same 7 notes as the origional key. A note that is not one of the 7 notes in a given scale is an ACCIDENTAL. I can barely write at this hour. I will sleep and speak to you soon Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Prior to the late 1600s it was considered bad form to leave the given key, so a note that was not tonic was called "accidental". Don't know why they chose that word, but it was also applied to black keys on a piano and certain strings on early stringed instruments the names of which I forget. Church probably thought of it. So if the key were D, meaning that F and C are always sharped, any natural prior to an F or C, and any sharp or flat in front of any other note would be called accidentals. An accidental lasts only for this measure, and only applies to this octave, even in this measure. So a middle C with a natural in front would be played as C, but in this measure any lower or higher C would be sharped. Sounds dumb, but works very well for ochestral chording, which causes you to stab yourself in the forehead with the Ticonderoga as you gurgle through transposing all this stuff. There is, or was, use of double accidentals, that is, double sharps and flats. Seems dumb, but the readers of music typiacally transposed for their mid 1300's Pre-CBS Gayaphone or some weird a$$ 8 stringed thrombobulator can generally see and think that far ahead. Rock On Bruthas and Sistahs. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted June 4, 2011 Author Share Posted June 4, 2011 I SO don't really have time to put into this too much, but let me try this: In any key, there are 8 notes. The last note is the octave, so there are 7 tones. In this way, there are then 7 NOTES for any given key. In a key, depending on the note chosen for the root note, there are seven MODES. Each mode will contain the same 7 notes as the origional key. A note that is not one of the 7 notes in a given scale is an ACCIDENTAL. Works for me... and I believe RTC confirmed. That makes sense of why they call them "accidentals"...maybe "Incidentals" would be a better term? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Works for me... and I believe RTC confirmed. That makes since of why they call them "accidentals"...maybe "Incidentals" would be a better term? meow!! LMAO I SO don't really have time to put into this too much, but let me try this: In any key, there are 8 notes. The last note is the octave, so there are 7 tones. In this way, there are then 7 NOTES for any given key. In a key, depending on the note chosen for the root note, there are seven MODES. Each mode will contain the same 7 notes as the original key. A note that is not one of the 7 notes in a given scale is an ACCIDENTAL. Stein, I am feeling chipper again now and it is 0830 LOL. That is correct sir! But there are some exceptions, for example - a harmonic minor scale, has the seventh note raised/sharpened - and this is not in the key signature! For example, if we are in the key of A minor (the same signature as C major, so no sharps or flats) the accidental we will see, will be G sharp. Visually speaking, when we look at the score the big giveaway that the piece is in the relative minor, is the page being full of the seventh note. Or to put it another way the page will be littered with G sharps. If we are in G major and looking at a score, the giveaway the piece is in e minor, the relative, will be D sharps. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 p.s RCT, I am looking forward to this thread really developing (and when we see key signatures and tonal rules blown to smithereens) when we get onto ambiguous harmonies and the fun of Shoenburg's 12 note row and then atonality! But back to rules (like in life), to appreciate rebellion, the rules have to be set first to be broken! which is what Miles Davis I believe was saying... Re The piano... Just a bit of trivia, but did you know the piano's full name is pianoforte, which literally means 'soft loud' as it could play with dynamics!! This is because until the invention of the piano (the early ones are slightly different to the ones we have today and were called Fortepianos) the harpsichord, the most popular keyboard instrument until about the time of Mozart, could only play one volume! Many music scholars think in performance practice (Andy baby...not straying, musicology still counts right?!!) the use of ornamentation such as trills etc, was used as a way to not let the note die out; as well as to add expression that wasn't possible by the use of dynamics. This affects the way the modern pianist performing Bach - for example re tackles certain sections; as he/she has a pedal to sustain notes, so should they use that and trill for example? It is a 'belt and braces' situation Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Perhaps mostly for Matt; TRIVIA..... Vivaldi's mom only cooked with four seasonings......Beethoven's first movement was created while succling his mom's breast....His first pee was ' accidental '..... Mozart used to tell cute chicks that " Pianoforte " meant " Piano foreplay "....In Italy, when the piano was first introduced, the sustain pedal was called " Viagra "....Before Beetoven's dad beat him, he told him, " Don't use that TONAL voice with me !!! " It was a MINOR problem until it became MAJOR.... Just sayin'..........And perfect pitch is throwing a mandolin and hitting a banjo.........just sayin'............Carry on............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 "****..I should be practicing right now" MILES DAVIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 "****..I should be practicing right now" MILES DAVIS " Who took my drugs "........MILES DAVIS.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Perhaps mostly for Matt; TRIVIA..... Vivaldi's mom only cooked with four seasonings......Beethoven's first movement was created while succling his mom's breast....His first pee was ' accidental '..... Mozart used to tell cute chicks that " Pianoforte " meant " Piano foreplay "....In Italy, when the piano was first introduced, the sustain pedal was called " Viagra "....Before Beetoven's dad beat him, he told him, " Don't use that TONAL voice with me !!! " It was a MINOR problem until it became MAJOR.... Just sayin'..........And perfect pitch is throwing a mandolin and hitting a banjo.........just sayin'............Carry on............ LMAO!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sausagefingers Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 my son is a geetoor teacher but doesnt teach me cause he lives to far away but he and my own geetoor teacher reckon that i should learn my theory and in particular sight reading they say it would help to improve and understand my own playing better. are they right. i got a job remembering 12 bar.........oh i wish i was young. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 my son is a geetoor teacher but doesnt teach me cause he lives to far away but he and my own geetoor teacher reckon that i should learn my theory and in particular sight reading they say it would help to improve and understand my own playing better. are they right. i got a job remembering 12 bar.........oh i wish i was young. Paul It does open up a whole world of music and you get to understand theory as a sort of 'bi product' of learning to read! I would say your teacher and son are right on! I teach a guy who is 82 who began learning classical guitar a year or so ago. He is living proof that you are never too old and while his fingers sometime run into difficulty he is playing some great pieces and making better progress than a lot of the young students! Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sausagefingers Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Matt, point taken i,l have to have a re-think....... watched your you tube links, impressed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Matt, point taken i,l have to have a re-think....... attaboy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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