The Fuzz that was... Nothing to do with Fred!

[stein]

By the time this thread is done we are going to know everything about all of it.

[Andy R]

My fault, Andy. I appreciate that the focus of the thread was on tone tweaking with gear. I guess I wasn't letting go because you were being somewhat sarcastic. I'll avoid biting back in the future.

 

No hard feelings from my perspective.

 

Alan

 

Alan,

No problem... As I responded to you initially I had no issue with your initial post and opinion. I was getting on some of the other guys.

 

My only point to you in that initial reply wasn't meant to be sarcastic at all. Just pointing out that Each of the players you mentioned have rigs that suit their sound and I like to learn and tweak on my rig to get the sound I am hearing in my head. Stuff like Searcy posted is geeky stuff I like.

 

The rest of the posts to you were admittedly and obviously sarcastic. I appreciate this reply from you and No hard feelings from my perspective either.

 

With respect,

 

 

Andy

[Andy R]

Alan,

No problem... As I responded to you initially I had no issue with your initial post and opinion. I was getting on some of the other guys.

 

My only point to you in that initial reply wasn't meant to be sarcastic at all. Just pointing out that Each of the players you mentioned have rigs that suit their sound and I like to learn and tweak on my rig to get the sound I am hearing in my head. Stuff like Searcy posted is geeky stuff I like.

 

The rest of the posts to you were admittedly and obviously sarcastic. I appreciate this reply from you and No hard feelings from my perspective either.

 

With respect,

 

 

Andy

 

PS +1 for you

[AlanH]

Alan,

No problem... As I responded to you initially I had no issue with your initial post and opinion. I was getting on some of the other guys.

 

My only point to you in that initial reply wasn't meant to be sarcastic at all. Just pointing out that Each of the players you mentioned have rigs that suit their sound and I like to learn and tweak on my rig to get the sound I am hearing in my head. Stuff like Searcy posted is geeky stuff I like.

 

The rest of the posts to you were admittedly and obviously sarcastic. I appreciate this reply from you and No hard feelings from my perspective either.

 

With respect,

 

 

Andy

 

 

That's a very gracious apology, Andy. My apolgies for going off on one too.

 

Alan

[Andy R]

So many things to play with an amp

 

Preamp tubes being over driven, play with different gain tubes, another way to get power tubes to work harder use lower gain pre amp tubes

Power tubes being over driven, some tube will break before other, some places will measure them and rate them.

The Power amp Class A or A/B they have different harmonic structures

The type and make of the tubes use in pre and power, some amp will let you swap between EL34 and 6L6

How HOT the power tubes are Biased, get them cook'n but they don't last

Speaker size and sensitivity, open back or closed

The AC voltage used to power the amp, drop it with a VARIC (brown sound)

 

How to drive the amp, GUITAR, pickup, pedal, strings, pick, the mood your in they all make a difference.

 

Then you have solid state amp and the way the clip

 

I have 2 of the same amp heads plugged into 2 the same speakers. The heads are loaded with the same tubes, one head sounds sweeter then the other I swapped tubes and speakers between them and that one head still sounds sweeter, something is go'n on inside this one that is magic. Just say'n some times you get lucky.

 

 

All good points and I have played around with all of them. Almost any amp that can use a 6l6 can use an el34 you usually just have to change the bias resistor. I have been going for Big Bottles and moving away from the EL34's....Thanks for the contribution[thumbup]

[milod]

Andy et al...

 

I guess my comments may have seemed non-technical when you're looking more at the technical - but part of that is because I guess I've seem too many good bands made to sound bad by room acoustics and other factors regardless what might come out of a guitar player's amp at 10 feet or less.

 

For example, in a room with certain acoustics, you'll tend to lose certain parts of the sound spectrum and/or will mush up what sounded at 3 feet like a clean note for note chord.

 

Bottom line to me is that I think sometimes we get so involved in the specific guitar/amp combination that we have a tendency to ignore what other acoustic factors are involved by the time the sound hits an audience.

 

That's not quite the question you asked, but I think it's a valid response in this case.

 

One little example is the band shell in my city park. It's marvelously designed to naturally amplify a brass band or whatever for the audience. On the other hand, I have yet to see a local concert put that effect to use if the soloist or group is thinking "electric amplification." I keep wondering, "why not?" Oddly they tend to put speakers outside the shell and crowds tend to congregate a good 30 yards away minimum.

 

My first "big" rock band played a number of times in a exposed wooden-beamed roller skating rink and as far as I can tell, it was as good for hearing what we thought we were playing as anywhere. Yet I've been in venues with a cupla hundred person capacity where you couldn't hear what the band was playing other than a mush of sound.

 

Meanwhile a street concert in Deadwood, SD between brick and stone buildings had marvelous sound - better than the photographers' station in front - 150 feet back because of the way everybody was miked and speakers were set up.

 

It seems to me that we've tended to forget what the Greeks and Romans knew about acoustics inside buildings and try to make sheer wattage make up for it. And it doesn't.

 

So to me, yeah, I'm interested in various effects, but I'm more interested in the factors that create communication between a band and an audience - and it seems to be something I seldom read about, even on a musicians' forum.

 

As a picker I want to have a sound that is pleasing to me coming out of my amp. But as a band member /slash/ entertainer, I also am more concerned that an audience hears what I think I'm producing on stage.

 

m

[Andy R]

Andy et al...

 

I guess my comments may have seemed non-technical when you're looking more at the technical - but part of that is because I guess I've seem too many good bands made to sound bad by room acoustics and other factors regardless what might come out of a guitar player's amp at 10 feet or less.

 

For example, in a room with certain acoustics, you'll tend to lose certain parts of the sound spectrum and/or will mush up what sounded at 3 feet like a clean note for note chord.

 

Bottom line to me is that I think sometimes we get so involved in the specific guitar/amp combination that we have a tendency to ignore what other acoustic factors are involved by the time the sound hits an audience.

 

That's not quite the question you asked, but I think it's a valid response in this case.

 

One little example is the band shell in my city park. It's marvelously designed to naturally amplify a brass band or whatever for the audience. On the other hand, I have yet to see a local concert put that effect to use if the soloist or group is thinking "electric amplification." I keep wondering, "why not?" Oddly they tend to put speakers outside the shell and crowds tend to congregate a good 30 yards away minimum.

 

My first "big" rock band played a number of times in a exposed wooden-beamed roller skating rink and as far as I can tell, it was as good for hearing what we thought we were playing as anywhere. Yet I've been in venues with a cupla hundred person capacity where you couldn't hear what the band was playing other than a mush of sound.

 

Meanwhile a street concert in Deadwood, SD between brick and stone buildings had marvelous sound - better than the photographers' station in front - 150 feet back because of the way everybody was miked and speakers were set up.

 

It seems to me that we've tended to forget what the Greeks and Romans knew about acoustics inside buildings and try to make sheer wattage make up for it. And it doesn't.

 

So to me, yeah, I'm interested in various effects, but I'm more interested in the factors that create communication between a band and an audience - and it seems to be something I seldom read about, even on a musicians' forum.

 

As a picker I want to have a sound that is pleasing to me coming out of my amp. But as a band member /slash/ entertainer, I also am more concerned that an audience hears what I think I'm producing on stage.

 

m

 

Milod your posts and wisdom is always welcome! I have long given up on a post ever holding to a specific topic for long. While I personally am more interested in the way the different components of a guitar rig interact and the type gain/distortion produced. I also realize that there might be things that others find interesting as brought up or inspired by the posts... You my friend, are welcome to speak of whatever you feel like speaking about. There is always something to be gained by wisdom gained through years of playing..

 

Regards,

 

Andy

[milod]

hey, for what it's worth... <grin>

 

I do use effects. Most of the time I have a given setting on a multi-effect box that mostly thickens and adds a bit of drive; then there's the Leslie emulator for pretending I'm playing a B3 since I'm strictly a five chord guy on a keyboard.

 

And I love amps of various types, guitars of various sorts... but... I keep thinking that whatever I'm playing, I want the audience to hear what I'm trying to do - not a screwed up version because of acoustics in the room or a lousy PA setup.

 

Yeah, I also keep thinking some day doing a gig where I'm turning that big old tube amp up to 10 and whamming out Link Wray's Rumble with lotza reverb and trem at the end... <grin> But I also wonder if people will hear what I think I'm doing with it. $#%$#%# <chuckle>

 

m

[retrosurfer1959]

I think the granular distortion that you bring up Andy is part of the drive for many of the smaller tube amps that now fill the market. A guitar with clean tone pushed into distortion by the Amp itself being driven hard has always been the goal of a lot of guitar players. You have only a few choices to chase that tone you can either rent an arena and crank a full size amp until you get the gravel tone your hunting or since that's not very practical for most there's hundreds of effects pedals and filters to change the signal without the manual breakup of the amp being pushed.

 

Or recently with the advent of small tube amps you can take a much smaller amp, many even less than 1 watt now and push it to the point that the signal deteriorates without the volume requirements of a larger AMP

 

My favorite tone will always be to take a LP with 57's plug it directly into my SLO 100 and blast it until I start blowing windows out of the house, but since that's not overly practical I push smaller amps to breakup without the issues of volume (and police complaints) that would entail.

[Searcy]

 

So this is the sound we're after here. Right?

[stein]

Andy:

 

I Don't remember exactly what stuff you had. Can you list? and specifically, what cabs with what speakers do you have there at your disposal, and regarding the speakers the cabs are loaded with, are they origonal? Do you have any cabs with reissue speakers?

 

Also, what amps are loaded with what tubes? I noted you have the JTM clone with KT-88's. I am curious how those differ in overdriven sound to the EL-34. I would imagine driving a KT-88 into overdrive would be much harder.

[Andy R]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaa3iPBy_Jw&feature=related

 

So this is the sound we're after here. Right?

 

Yep that's part of it I love the way the low end on his E string breaks up without being to bassy or muddy but still sounds full. It has a growl and definition but not sizzily and "fine grained" The Youtube clip doesn't do it justice.

 

Here is another part of his tone i like. Check out around. 1:06 when they go to the chorus especially when he hits the open E string and when he hits G Maj and A Maj chords. It just Growls and you can hear all the notes underneath. His lead tone is also very fat on the GBE strings without even when he is in the bridge position. I know he is rolling back the tone knob a bit. To me it sounds warm and full and doesn't get muddy it still has good attack and gain without getting sizzly or piercing

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-l3k4HYAK0

 

Pretty much anything by Warren has the sound I like.

[rct]

Pretty much anything by Warren has the sound I like.

 

Today yes, I would agree. The early days of his with the Allmans, not so much. Too much SLO, too gained most of the time. Took a few years to get him to sound appealing next to Dickey, and it seems like it stuck!

 

rct

[Andy R]

Andy:

 

I Don't remember exactly what stuff you had. Can you list? and specifically, what cabs with what speakers do you have there at your disposal, and regarding the speakers the cabs are loaded with, are they origonal? Do you have any cabs with reissue speakers?

 

Also, what amps are loaded with what tubes? I noted you have the JTM clone with KT-88's. I am curious how those differ in overdriven sound to the EL-34. I would imagine driving a KT-88 into overdrive would be much harder.

 

Well pretty much just Marshall 4X12's The one I mainly use is a 1969 Cabinet with original Greenback 25 watt celestions. The Other two are 1976 Marshall 4/12 cabs with 25 watt black back celestions. I used to have a Reissue Marshall 1960TV cabinet with 25 watt greenbacks in it that sounded great with my JCM 800 but like an idiot I sold them both. That was a good combination and I changed out the 6l6's with EL34's on the JCM 800. But back in those days I was going for more of a Judas Priest type of tone.

 

Currently I have 2 1973 Marshall Superleads with Original Point to Point boards that have EL34's. I also have a 1976 Super lead with 6l6's which I am liking better these days. I am definitely trending away from the EL34's. The JTM-45 and KT88's have been the best combo I have found yet. And the power tubes actually start clipping very quickly. I think I like them because they saturate a little cleaner than el-34s do. IMHO

 

I want to try out some Vintage 30 speakers and some higher wattage speakers cabs as this is one area I have not experimented much with yet.

[duane v]

I really dig the tone of Lynch's rig on this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyePfnR3DmA

[duane v]

And this one... To me it sounds like a 50 watt Fender Amp floored

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFqXFE8OSG4

[Andy R]

And this one... To me it sounds like a 50 watt Fender Amp floored

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFqXFE8OSG4

 

Ha that's funny. We are playing this in my band. I just learned it last weekend.

[stein]

Well pretty much just Marshall 4X12's The one I mainly use is a 1969 Cabinet with original Greenback 25 watt celestions. The Other two are 1976 Marshall 4/12 cabs with 25 watt black back celestions. I used to have a Reissue Marshall 1960TV cabinet with 25 watt greenbacks in it that sounded great with my JCM 800 but like an idiot I sold them both. That was a good combination and I changed out the 6l6's with EL34's on the JCM 800. But back in those days I was going for more of a Judas Priest type of tone.

 

Currently I have 2 1973 Marshall Superleads with Original Point to Point boards that have EL34's. I also have a 1976 Super lead with 6l6's which I am liking better these days. I am definitely trending away from the EL34's. The JTM-45 and KT88's have been the best combo I have found yet. And the power tubes actually start clipping very quickly. I think I like them because they saturate a little cleaner than el-34s do. IMHO

 

I want to try out some Vintage 30 speakers and some higher wattage speakers cabs as this is one area I have not experimented much with yet.

That reminds me, you also use an attenuator (superleads..lol). I have never tried one, but I have to assume in some way it replicates the effect of feedback from the speakers.

 

By the time I had discovered these things with altering the speaker wattage, I had already moved away from using the Marshalls, because they were much higher wattage than I needed, and I was using smaller fenders and a Vicky. I was still looking forward to messing with them more, but I lost that opportunity when they sold my storage.

 

Regarding speakers them selves and obtaining them, it IS a problem. Although a 50's Jensen can handle what I do with them, the age makes it an issue as there is really only song long a speaker will be intact. Then it becomes a matter of what modern replications sound and react the same. That is where I had left off. I had some new Webers and a buttload of Italian c12n's, but I was not about to subject the originals to a Marshall.

 

Regarding the Vintage 30, when they first came out, they were GREAT speakers. I thought they were way more colorful than the G-12-75 that the JCM-800 came with. The real question is how good do the Chinese made Celestians sound, or how close are the British reproductions are to the originals.