Ever seen a Gibson that played itself?

[livemusic]

I once played a Martin D-41 at a Guitar Center, of all places, that was to die for. At that time, I was broke. Rats. What a fab guitar. I have NEVER played a guitar so easy to play. I thought my former Taylor 310kce was easy to play. Not even close! It was like butter and it was as though my playing improved 20%! I was amazed how I could fly all over that guitar. I have only seen this on one other guitar, a Takamine at a pawn shop! What I am talking about is very low action. The other geometry involved, I really don't know, I'm no expert.

 

Ever seen a Gibson like this? Do you think a good tech could do this to pretty much any quality guitar or are some just 'special?'

 

I suppose you MIGHT compromise a bit of tone for this? If so, it might still be worth it, it was just so much fun to play!

[E-minor7]

Now of course we don't know the exact level of butter this 41 represented, still I think most Gibsons are well measured, have very fine necks and fretboards. Some need a little adjustment, but all in all they are smooth and inciting players. This goes for the vintage department too - I mean, my '63 SJ is cream.

 

If you search for low action, there might be some tone lost. If it's worth it is all your judgement. I personally think so.

 

 

[blindboygrunt]

is 'tone' lost with string height ? or just volume ? i never heard a guitar losing very much of anything with a good set up . totally worth doing .

[livemusic]

Of course, realize that I have seven Gibsons and a slew of other guitars and NONE of them have anywhere near the playability of that D-41. One of my Gospels is really good and all of them are okay, but that D-41 was on another level. It was that good. Again, very low action.

[blindboygrunt]

you think it was the neck shape then? maybe just perfect for your hand ?

anyone know a reason why any acoustic can't have an identical set up to the one next to it ? or in this case a martin ?

one of my old guitars was a sigma version of the d45 and while its not the worst guitar in the world its setup was the lowest action i ever had on any guitar . i didnt do it , it just was bought like that. but i should be able to take it alongside my 45 and say to a luthier / setup guy 'make that the same as that' ... right?

[E-minor7]

is 'tone' lost with string height ? or just volume ?

Good point – well isn't it primarily volume, , , and then the impression of tone because of that.

[EuroAussie]

Always thought the J-200's were consistenly the most comfortable neck Ive come across, many played like butter. My J-150 is no different, so yes I think it is possible. Often its the difference between a good and not as good as it could be set up.

[zombywoof]

Never saw any guitar that I did not need to fire up to get a sound out of but the one guitar I ran across last year that I really wanted cuz I had never heard a better sounding one with that particualr moniker was a 1951 Martin D-18. This one was loud as all get out and probably the best balanced Martin dread I have ever run across.

 

Second place went to a 1967 Gibson Hummingbird - the thick screwed down pickguard notwithstanding.

[zombywoof]

is 'tone' lost with string height ? or just volume ? i never heard a guitar losing very much of anything with a good set up . totally worth doing .

 

With me everything is different because of the way I play. I love to drive the top. I ain't got what you call a light touch and tend to play hard so need the higher action. It seems everybody who plays my guitars finds my action is too high while I think theirs too low. I just don't get the sound I want out of a guitar with a lower action as I find myself having to hold back more than I like.

[pfox14]

Nothing beats a really good setup. Most guitars need some tweaking to get the most out of them. Seems like there some Gibson bashing going on.....do they always take 2nd place next to a Martin? I thought this was a Gibson lover's forum :)

[Buc McMaster]

Playability in any guitar starts with the neck set. Without a good neck angle no amount of setup work will make a guitar a real "player". It's been my experience that no two guitars come from the factory with the same neck set....some are better than others. When the neck set is right, nut and saddle adjustments can turn a so-so player into a monster that plays, as you said, like butter. My Hummingbird is the best player I've ever owned and it's all due to a spectacular neck set. A straight edge laid on the frets hovers about 1/8" above the bridge......perfect! It's the first thing I check on a potential new guitar. There were three H'Birds at the store when I bought mine. All three were good, but the one I picked had a neck set far and away better than the other two, and this one truly plays like butter. So I'd say that D41 you happened upon had an exceptional neck set, making it a superb player.

[Guth]

Playability in any guitar starts with the neck set.

 

+1

 

I also believe this to be at the root of a great playing/sounding guitar.

 

Everyone has their own personal preferences as far as setup goes — I fall into the camp that prefers action on the high side of things as I tend to dig in pretty good or "drive the top" as zombywoof says. I've experienced guitars where the saddle was lowered to bring the action down and the tone (not just the volume) of the guitar changed considerably. The notes, especially on the low end, lost their leading edge, that punch or clarity that I look for went missing. In the end it's obviously a combination of things that makes a guitar play and sound like it does. However without the proper neck set to begin with, the chances of the guitar falling into the spectacular category is greatly diminished.

[blindboygrunt]

Playability in any guitar starts with the neck set. Without a good neck angle no amount of setup work will make a guitar a real "player". It's been my experience that no two guitars come from the factory with the same neck set....some are better than others. When the neck set is right, nut and saddle adjustments can turn a so-so player into a monster that plays, as you said, like butter. My Hummingbird is the best player I've ever owned and it's all due to a spectacular neck set. A straight edge laid on the frets hovers about 1/8" above the bridge......perfect! It's the first thing I check on a potential new guitar. There were three H'Birds at the store when I bought mine. All three were good, but the one I picked had a neck set far and away better than the other two, and this one truly plays like butter. So I'd say that D41 you happened upon had an exceptional neck set, making it a superb player.

 

can you extrapolate buc please ?

i know that there should be little bridge showing when you sight down the fretboard . ie. if the angle of the fingerboard continues past the soundhole and hits the top of the guitar or very close to bottom of the bridge then its neck reset time ..... ok ...... so ..... you take a straight edge and run it from frets to bridge , across the soundhole..... what length straight edge ? cos as i see it , there is a slight curve in the fret board no? if so then where the end of the straight edge would ... erm.... vary up and down where it hit the bridge front as you slid it up and down the frets ?

geez , i hope you understand what i'm asking here ?

and..... how close were the other two 'birds with their straightedge experiment?

sorry for the ornery question :-)

[Buc McMaster]

A picture is worth a thousand words.......

 

 

As you can see, the bottom of the ruler is about 1/8" above the bridge (not the saddle, the bridge). This is a most excellent neckset. The neck to body joint just worked out better than average in this guitar's case. When shopping or checking out guitars without a handy straight edge, I always sight down the edge of the fingerboard. This sighting gives your eye a line to follow to the bridge......looking down the neck over the nut does not give you a true eyeball line to the bridge. I look down both sides of the fingerboard to see if the neck might be twisted a bit. With a great neck set you can have a taller saddle for good break angle. The best feature of a good neck set (to me) is the action is much more consistant from nut to body......the strings can lay in a plane more parallel to the fingerboard. The other two Hummingbirds were good with an average neckset - the line of sight hit roughly at the top of the bridge on one and just below on the other. Neither was even close to this one.

 

If the line of sight hits the bottom of the bridge it's way past neck reset time......do not buy such a guitar!

[blindboygrunt]

ok , thanks buc .

now .. in the picture if the camera panned right up the length of the straight edge ... at which fret would the other end of it be?

i dont have a straight edge , or i'd just do this myself instead of annying you :-)

[blindboygrunt]

just had another thought , intrigued by what you have said buc , i bet your sorry :-) .... what you are pointing out in your picture is what was done in the factory ? the straight edge finishing over the bridge or hitting it somewhere on its front has got to do with how well/badly the neck is attached to the body ? theres nothing anyone can do to get that clearance you have above the bridge without a neck reset ? have i got that right ??

i dont think i've ever seen what you have pointed out in your picture , always line if site into the bridge , varying degrees in where it would hit of course an i knew not to buy a guitar that was too close to the bottom .mind you , i dont proffess to have looked at hundreds of guitars in a lot of detail other than the ones i have been buying . i think if i had seen what your pic shows i might have actually been a bit worried by it :-)

every day's a day at school huh? :-)

[Buc McMaster]

the straight edge finishing over the bridge or hitting it somewhere on its front has got to do with how well/badly the neck is attached to the body ? theres nothing anyone can do to get that clearance you have above the bridge without a neck reset ? have i got that right ??

 

Yes. This is correct. It has everything to do with how the neck was set to the body's neck block when it was built. On dovetailed neck joints there is no remedy for a bad set other than a reset. This is why some builders like Taylor have a bolt-on neck design......it is much easier to make neck angle adjustment after the guitar is out in the real world. On Gibson guitars (or any other with a dovetailed, glued neck joint) there are no adjustments you can make to correct for a bad neck set. You can raise or lower the saddle, you can fiddle with the string height in the nut, you can even dress the frets lower......but you cannot change the neck angle with out a reset.

 

The straight edge in the photo is just a 12" rule laid on edge at the top of the fret radius (right down the middle of the fingerboard). This visually extends a line from the top of the frets to the bridge and is a demonstration of how well the neck is set. Popular wisdom and guitar building physics says this line should fall at or very near the top of the bridge for the guitar to have a proper neck set. A line that falls well above the bridge, like in the photo, indicates an exceptional neckset, leaving lots of options for setting string height to a player's taste by changing the height of the saddle. Clear as mud?

[blindboygrunt]

yip , i appreciate your time explaining buc . i just wanted to be sure because like i said , if i went to look at a guitar and the ruler was like yours i wouldnt have been sure what that meant.

so you've taught me a fairly useful thing there

i owe you a beer