Aster1 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Hi Ya'll, I have a question on my newer Elitist Casino with regards to it being somewhat tame on treble. Even on the bridge PUP, it isn't near as hot sounding as my MIC standard Casino. I understand that they are made in China pups on the standard & the Elitist are made in USA Gibson P-90's. I like to play a lot of the middle year Beatles tunes and, for my ears anyway, my Standard is closer sounding than my beautiful Elitist. I don't have much experience with Gibson/Epiphone single coils. Have Gretsch, Fender, & Ric S.Coils & love them. Is it maybe a cap change, height, or set the posts different on the PUPs that I need to do? Just wanting some advice from others in the know. Thanks in advance for any insight. Aster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPDEN Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Hi Ya'll, I have a question on my newer Elitist Casino with regards to it being somewhat tame on treble. Even on the bridge PUP, it isn't near as hot sounding as my MIC standard Casino. I understand that they are made in China pups on the standard & the Elitist are made in USA Gibson P-90's. I like to play a lot of the middle year Beatles tunes and, for my ears anyway, my Standard is closer sounding than my beautiful Elitist. I don't have much experience with Gibson/Epiphone single coils. Have Gretsch, Fender, & Ric S.Coils & love them. Is it maybe a cap change, height, or set the posts different on the PUPs that I need to do? Just wanting some advice from others in the know. Thanks in advance for any insight. Aster It may or may not be the pickups directly, there are also acoustic properties in play here as well. During the last few months alone I compared just about every Casino available to play in my area from the Elitist to the 50th '61',the production MIC Casino, and even 2 all-original Vintage Casino models (a '63 and '65). What I found was there were indeed tonal differences even between the same contemporary models. To wit: I A/B'd an '09 (Natural) and a '10 Elitist (VS) and the '09 was tonally dark and unplugged it was just Dull. The '10 VS on the other hand was lively nice tonal range into the highs and the top was quite lively. Letting a chord ring out on the '10 VS was very rewarding to both the feeling of the body's physical response as well as to the ears. The '09 had very little physical response and was basically dull sounding. So my point I suppose is that it can't be taken for granted that the same model from one to the next will always be consistent. On the other hand, the four '61 50th Anniversary models that I played were very consistent tonally and at or above the par that the '10 VS Elitist set for comparison. Even the the production line MIC Casino that I compared was well set up and was able to ring out the highs and lows nicely. But it would be short-sighted of me had I judged all Elitist Casinos on that one '09 alone, any guitar can come out of the factory with dud qualities, and evidenced by the '10 Elitist VS that sounded wonderful and was more than worthy to take home. The acoustic guitar manager at one of my local shops brought to my attention the Gibson John Lennon J160E they just received sounded poor in comparison the to the Epi J160E JL version. This just underscores the importance to play and compare acoustic and semi-acoustic instruments before you buy, or at least be able to return or exchange one if it is less than satisfying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aster1 Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 I too have the 50th annie Casino and it is nice and bright. Maybe cuz of the plastic Pup covers, don't know. Don't get me wrong, my Elitist is really a fantastic sounding guitar plugged or unplugged. Just didn't know if anyone had done some simple mods that improves the treble. I know that's a common thing with the Ric's and Gretch's, but didn't know what you do for Gibson P-90's. I defiantly like the build/quality much better on the Elitist than my others. They are good, but it is noticeably better. Thanks Aster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The acoustic guitar manager at one of my local shops brought to my attention the Gibson John Lennon J160E they just received sounded poor in comparison the to the Epi J160E JL version. This just underscores the importance to play and compare acoustic and semi-acoustic instruments before you buy, or at least be able to return or exchange one if it is less than satisfying. Great points. RE: the J-160E. I just want to underscore that if we're talking about how the guitar sounds acoustically, then the Epiphone EJ-160E SHOULD sound better than the Gibson John Lennon J-160E. The Epiphone has a solid top and x-bracing. It's an update of the original design, intended to sound superior acoustically to the type of guitar that Lennon actually played, which had a laminated top and was ladder braced to suppress feedback when the pickup was used. The "Lennon" signature Gibson J-160E's are historically accurate reproductions with the acoustically inferior laminated top and ladder braced design. The Epiphone EJ-16OE, on the other hand, is entirely different design, meant to LOOK like it. The original Gibson J-160E was one of the world's first acoustic/electric guitars, and all effort was made to make it perform electrically. By that, I mean the designers intended to create a type of flattop that would not feedback when amplified. In doing so, they borrowed many of the techniques they used to make archtop guitars (laminated tops, heavy parallel bracing), which up to that point, were the most frequently amplified guitars. They did not have the pickup technology to amplify the sound of an acoustic guitar accurately (that's why it has a P-90), so they did not worry if the guitar didn't sound too good acoustically. Its electric performance mattered most. At its heart, the original J-160E was an electric guitar. The Epiphone EJ-160E is a nice sounding acoustic, but it DOES NOT sound like a '50s/'60s Gibson J-160E acoustically by a LONG SHOT, and it is not meant to. If it it did sound like the original, Epiphone would never sell any, because a '50s/'60s or modern Lennon signature Gibson J-160E sounds like it was stuffed with socks acoustically. One last thing: the Epiphone EJ-16OE is the sibling of the Gibson J-160E Standard. The Standard (this is the model name--I'm not referring to any Gibson Lennon signature models now) also has updated construction, and features a solid top and x-bracing, like most traditional acoustic guitars. I apologize if I hijacked your post, as you made many excellent points. I just wanted to provide one possible explanation of why modern buyers might consider the Epiphone EJ-160E to sound better acoustically than a '50s/60's spec Gibson J-160E. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parabar Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The distance of P-90 pole pieces from the strings can make a huge difference in tone. If they're too close, the magnetic field can interfere with string vibration, too far away and they can sound dull. I'd suggest adjusting the pole piece height to see if you notice any difference. Also, what amp are you playing it through? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 When seeking to purchase an Elitist Casino, I A-Bed three '09 examples at the same time. Two were fairly lifeless, both acoustically and plugged in, while the third was very responsive in both respects. Of course I purchased the more favorable of the three. Also ran into a similar result while purchasing my 335 and 339. All guitars are certainly not created equal, and what we tonally seek can vary tremendously as well. I'd definitely recommend some experimentation, or even a pickup swap down the road if you can't dial in the tone you're after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPDEN Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Great points. RE: the J-160E. I just want to underscore that if we're talking about how the guitar sounds acoustically, then the Epiphone EJ-160E SHOULD sound better than the Gibson John Lennon J-160E. The Epiphone has a solid top and x-bracing. It's an update of the original design, intended to sound superior acoustically to the type of guitar that Lennon actually played, which had a laminated top and was ladder braced to suppress feedback when the pickup was used. The "Lennon" signature J-160E's are historically accurate reproductions with the acoustically inferior laminated top and ladder braced design. The Epiphone EJ-16OE, on the other hand, is entirely different design, meant to LOOK like it. The original Gibson J-160E was one of the world's first acoustic/electric guitars, and all effort was made to make it perform electrically. By that, I mean the designers intended to create a type of flattop that would not feedback when amplified. In doing so, they borrowed many of the techniques they used to make archtop guitars (laminated tops, heavy parallel bracing), which up to that point, were the most frequently amplified guitars. They did not have the pickup technology to amplify the sound of an acoustic guitar accurately (that's why it has a P-90), so they did not worry if the guitar didn't sound too good acoustically. It's electric performance mattered most. At it's heart, the original J-160E was an electric guitar. The Epiphone EJ-160E is a nice sounding acoustic, but it DOES NOT sound like a '50s/'60s Gibson J-160E acoustically by a LONG SHOT, and it is not meant to. If it it did sound like the original, Epiphone would never sell any, because a '50s/'60s or modern Lennon signature Gibson J-160E sounds like it was stuffed with socks acoustically. One last thing: the Epiphone EJ-16OE is the sibling of the Gibson J-160E Standard. The Standard (this is the model name--I'm not referring to any Lennon signature models now) also has updated construction, and features a solid top and x-bracing, like most traditional acoustic guitars. I apologize if i hijacked your post, as you made many excellent points. I just wanted to provide one possible explanation of why modern buyers might consider the Epiphone EJ-160E to sound better acoustically than a '50s/60's spec Gibson J-160E. Red 333 Thanks Red, you make excellent points regarding the specificity of the current Gibson version of the "JL" 160E compared to the Epi's "JL" 160E version. And at the same time I think you also expanded on the point of importance of not taking ANY guitar face value. Especially the lay buyer who looks mainly at the model designations & brand as a majority of what is being presented. As matter of fact, your post alone could be great discussion thread unto itself about historic construction & appointments and contemporary versions.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueman335 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 All guitars are certainly not created equal, and what we tonally seek can vary tremendously as well. I'd definitely recommend some experimentation, or even a pickup swap down the road if you can't dial in the tone you're after. +1. Wood is the biggest culprit. No two pieces are the same, even if cut from the same tree. Throughout the entire tree there are differences in grain, density, water content, mineral content, compression, etc. During an extended dry cycle, wood will form differently than during normal rainfall years, and especially an extended wet cycle. And all of this effects the wood's tonally qualities. Stradivarius violins were made from trees growing during an unusually cold period known as "the Little Ice Age." Tough times for human survival, but it worked great for tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aster1 Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 The distance of P-90 pole pieces from the strings can make a huge difference in tone. If they're too close, the magnetic field can interfere with string vibration, too far away and they can sound dull. I'd suggest adjusting the pole piece height to see if you notice any difference. Also, what amp are you playing it through? My amp for the Casino is most often the Vox AC15C1. I run on treble boost for the most part as well. I will try & check the Pup height & maybe adj. up the pole pieces as well. Charlie B & Clarkus, what about you guys? Are your Casino's pretty "hot" sounding on the treble brightness side of things? I know both of you have the real deals don't you? Maybe Bonzo too!! Aster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPDEN Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 My amp for the Casino is most often the Vox AC15C1. I run on treble boost for the most part as well. I will try & check the Pup height & maybe adj. up the pole pieces as well. Charlie B & Clarkus, what about you guys? Are your Casino's pretty "hot" sounding on the treble brightness side of things? I know both of you have the real deals don't you? Maybe Bonzo too!! Aster I'm play through a AC15C1-BL as well with and vary between the normal and the top boost with no tonal issues in either. As a matter of fact, the VOX hasn't yielded any bad sounding guitars through it to my ears. Whereas the Valve Special with the stock speaker in direct comparison was not nearly as bright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aster1 Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 With the suggestion for Charlie & Bonzo, I raised the poles 1/8" on the bridge pup and foolishly remembered that I hadn't changed the strings on this git yet (ever) I've got to get a maintenance log going on all these guitars cuz I can't keep up with those things in my head anymore! Sounds nice, bright, crisp and just right now. Thanks guys, and sorry for the dunderheaded stunt. Thought for sure these weren't very old. They looked brand new (till I took them off and could see they were factory). Aster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpruceTop Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I like to adjust a pickup’s height before adjusting pole pieces. To me, raising pole pieces does not achieve that same result in tone than raising the pickup. I found that raising pole pieces will add treble but at some point the tradeoff can be harshness. So for a hotter and brighter sound, I see if I can raise the pickup first. P-90’s seem to be among the most sensitive pu’s to pu height adjustment. And they can be adjusted closer to the strings (before ghost notes, overtones, etc…) than any other pu styles I have. So if it were me, I would measure the pu heights. I shoot for 1/16” bridge and 1/8” neck pu clearances to start with. If it the clearances are more, I would raise them. Since the Casino P-90's are dogear-style (no height adjustments screws), I would get pickup spacers. Then when the pu’s are at the right heights, I use the pole pieces for individual string volume balance. This is a total balancing act for me. I want as beefy a tone I can get w/o string pull and the associated tradeoffs of a pickup being too close to the strings and to also have the desired volume balance/blend of the individual pu’s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Glad you got it sorted. We can still reply, right? I love P-90's, and like SPRUCETOP has said, I also find they can be closer to the string than most pups. They don't seem to be as 'reactive' to tonal changes as others regarding height, but I find getting a tonal balance between the bridge and neck a little challenging. I usually find myself adjusting poles and overall height. Another thing I have noticed on the few I have worked on/swapped, is that the P-90 types can change quite drastically going from one guitar to another. What a certain pup sounds like in one axe can sound tonally very different in another, more so than most other pups. It is as if the P-90 is reacting to things I can't hear. One thing I do feel I have to say is that judging guitars side by side can be very misleading without adjusting the amp settings. Its obvious that you would want to adjust the amp for, say a Les Paul and a Strat, but it is also true for two Strats that are supposed to be identical. Often, without any amp adjustments, one may seem brighter than the other. But when adjusting the amp to compensate, or be ideal for a particular guitar, that can change and the guitar that SEEMED brighter now acts like the one with more mids, or whatever the case may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpruceTop Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Glad you got it sorted. We can still reply, right? I love P-90's, and like SPRUCETOP has said, I also find they can be closer to the string than most pups. They don't seem to be as 'reactive' to tonal changes as others regarding height, but I find getting a tonal balance between the bridge and neck a little challenging. I usually find myself adjusting poles and overall height. Another thing I have noticed on the few I have worked on/swapped, is that the P-90 types can change quite drastically going from one guitar to another. What a certain pup sounds like in one axe can sound tonally very different in another, more so than most other pups. It is as if the P-90 is reacting to things I can't hear. One thing I do feel I have to say is that judging guitars side by side can be very misleading without adjusting the amp settings. Its obvious that you would want to adjust the amp for, say a Les Paul and a Strat, but it is also true for two Strats that are supposed to be identical. Often, without any amp adjustments, one may seem brighter than the other. But when adjusting the amp to compensate, or be ideal for a particular guitar, that can change and the guitar that SEEMED brighter now acts like the one with more mids, or whatever the case may be. I agree on your last point about the tonal differences between guitars. My solution, which is very practical in a gig situation, is a bit different. I set the amp to be just right in the treble range for the darkest guitar I bring. Then I use the tone control(s) to mellow out the single coils. I don't want to mess with the amp much during gigs. So this works for me. It probably helps to have a good tone circuit, ie using quality caps like Orange Drops, etc… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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