What amp for a PA surrogate?

[T Bone]

Okay, I know I'll probably need to experiment, but thought I might benefit from some of the experiences of others here. I want to work on singing while playing. I don't own a PA (plan to buy one next year around tax refund time).

 

Here's what I have on hand to work with. I have a Shure SM 58 (also an SM 57, though bought that to mic instruments), proper stand for it, and a line matching adapter to make it useable in a high impedance amp. In fact it's a good one that Shure makes, and is reversable so can also use a high impedance mic in a low impedance PA.

 

Amps, I have the Blues Deluxe, Deluxe Reverb Reissue, a 20 watt vintage Marshall head (actually a PA head, though I don't think I'll be using this one) a Jet City 20 watt 1/12 combo (has reverb also, though the reverb is not particularly great for guitar). Also will be picking up the Excelsior and the Blues Jr. later this year. And I've got the little ones too, a Fender Champion 400 and the three Vox AC4 TV's (10 inch, 8 inch and 6.75 inch speakers).

 

So, one question is how will the reverb on these guitar amps be for vocals? Will I want parity in the power output of the mic amp and the guitar, or am I liable to want a bunch more power for one or the other? Was sort of thinking two pairs, lower and higher powered. The Jet City as PA (maybe it's reverb will be more impressive on vocals?) and the DRRI or Blues Deluxe as guitar amp.

 

What about both into one? The multi channel amps, I know I don't want to run two guitars through one together, but what about a guitar and a mic?

[RaysEpiphone]

Well you can rig it up and it will work but you really need a mixer and a graphic EQ with some full-range speaker's to get a good sound for vocal's. You don't need a sub-woofer or a large regular woofer at all. A powered speaker with a single 12" or even a 10" and a good compression driver (titanium) will work wonder's for vocal's.

 

EV's Live-X series had a really nice speaker with a built in 4 channel mixer last year but I just looked at there web site and it seems they have changed the line and taken that mixer away, I'm sure some body still make's something like that, you just need to look around a bit to find one.

 

How many of these small/medium size speakers you need depends on your stage volume, when you play with your band-mate's is it real loud? Or do you keep the level low and controllable?

[SweetMarie]

If you're getting an Excelsior--it has a mic input (and no reverb).

I don't think you can run both a guitar and a mic like you can with a tweed Deluxe,

but it is an option.

I've got an Excelsior coming on the 30th and I'll check it out for you.

No audio/video though, because my voice has been known to make grown men cry.

[T Bone]

Well you can rig it up and it will work but you really need a mixer and a graphic EQ with some full-range speaker's to get a good sound for vocal's. You don't need a sub-woofer or a large regular woofer at all. A powered speaker with a single 12" or even a 10" and a good compression driver (titanium) will work wonder's for vocal's.

 

EV's Live-X series had a really nice speaker with a built in 4 channel mixer last year but I just looked at there web site and it seems they have changed the line and taken that mixer away, I'm sure some body still make's something like that, you just need to look around a bit to find one.

 

How many of these small/medium size speakers you need depends on your stage volume, when you play with your band-mate's is it real loud? Or do you keep the level low and controllable?

 

Thanks for the reply! The premise of my post was just for home use though, for practicing singing while playing. Not expecting great sound, just wondering about how to get the best results achievable with the amps I have on hand (not making a purchase towards this, as a year from now-actually 11 months, I should be buying a really decent PA). At the moment, playing solo. If that changes soon, adjustments will obviously need to be made.

 

 

 

 

If you're getting an Excelsior--it has a mic input (and no reverb).

I don't think you can run both a guitar and a mic like you can with a tweed Deluxe,

but it is an option.

I've got an Excelsior coming on the 30th and I'll check it out for you.

No audio/video though, because my voice has been known to make grown men cry.

Thanks! Wouldn't want to try more than one into the Excelsior though, even with 3 inputs, it is only one channel. And no tone control *(besides the bright switch) tells me the mic jack would probably be better used for a harp mic (couldn't hurt to try it for vocals though- that 15 inch speaker may just provide some good results).

 

Actually saw your post on the Excelsior coming from Sweetwater, and tried to call them yesterday to see what kind of deal I could get, but they were closed (Sunday). Will try them tomorrow.

 

Might be able to go two into one on a two channel amp though, which leaves the Deluxe Reverb Reissue and the Blues Deluxe. Was just thinking better results likely with two separate amps. I'll play around with it a bit this week and let y'all know what works best for me.

 

As to your voice, some of my favorite singers have horrible voices (Tom Petty, Keith Richards, Neil Young... Bob Dylan!). And they do just fine (hey, I can't sing- but I figure if I can train my bad voice to sing in key.... well, it worked for them!).

[milod]

Back in the olden days I got the DR specifically to be able to run mike and guitar through the same amp for a small solo gig. That's well before even a tape recorder was in my budget, btw.

 

The DR should work with the mike through the side that has reverb and the guitar after whatever pedals you have through the other side - or the reverse if you lack pedals. I think I'd tend to use the reverb side for vocals even with an AE through the non-reverb side.

 

It worked in the late '60s, should work now.

 

For what it's worth, 8-9 years ago I got an inexpensive Kustom 30-watt AE amp that does the job quite well. In fact, better than the DR or my big two-channel tube jobbie because it will run line out into the computer for recording. The amp, if raised to chest level, has done pretty well in a small venue (saloon) doing country rock even with drums bangin' away. It's not as good a single-box solution as having a PA, though, but it'd do line out to a PA and also serve as a monitor. Best $150 I've spent on amplification, I think.

 

m

[T Bone]

Back in the olden days I got the DR specifically to be able to run mike and guitar through the same amp for a small solo gig. That's well before even a tape recorder was in my budget, btw.

 

The DR should work with the mike through the side that has reverb and the guitar after whatever pedals you have through the other side - or the reverse if you lack pedals. I think I'd tend to use the reverb side for vocals even with an AE through the non-reverb side.

 

It worked in the late '60s, should work now.

 

For what it's worth, 8-9 years ago I got an inexpensive Kustom 30-watt AE amp that does the job quite well. In fact, better than the DR or my big two-channel tube jobbie because it will run line out into the computer for recording. The amp, if raised to chest level, has done pretty well in a small venue (saloon) doing country rock even with drums bangin' away. It's not as good a single-box solution as having a PA, though, but it'd do line out to a PA and also serve as a monitor. Best $150 I've spent on amplification, I think.

 

m

Thank you Sir! Very helpful reply, and just what I was looking for. So the reverb side will work well for vocals (not surprising I suppose). As for lack of pedals, it's more like lack of space from having so many (3 boards and excess spilling over). So I've got that covered. In fact I could even try a delay or reverb pedal for the mic and not be short for the guitar. And besides, I really don't expect this will be for any more than practice at home alone. Anything more will probably get me somewhere there is already a PA (or like I said, planning to buy one next Spring when tax refund time comes).

[milod]

Tbone...

 

Back in the mid to late '60s I used that DR for about any sort of amplification you might imagine - including running a turntable through it. That's before I had anything to play tapes, even.

 

Times surely have changed.

 

m

[RaysEpiphone]

If your not worried about quality then just plug it into what ever you have and like I said it will work but sonic s will not be good. Did you figure out if you play loud or soft when you want to do this? If the answer is loud then you may very well damage what ever you use as a surrogate because guitar amps are for the most part designed to run a guitar. The acoustic guitar amp's that have a microphone input would work a lot better then a regular guitar amp.

[brundaddy]

Any guitar amp should be able to handle the job, as long as it can crank as loud as you need it to be. Just make sure you use a Hi-Z adapter (available at any Radio Shack, music store, or many electronics supply joints).

[stein]

I think using some guitar amps as a PA for vocal can work better than most think. As MILOD says, many small gigs were done that way in the past, and it is true that a lot of early amps designed for guitar with more than one channel, or volume controls were intended for that purpose.

 

The Marshall PA head you have is also just that...a PA, and intended for what you propose to do.

 

I used to have a Roland JC-120 that I would use for a mic in a pinch, and it worked real well. Sounded at least as good as a cheap PA, and we also used SM57's back then for everything. A 100 watt Marshall worked fairly well too. I am sure there were others but I remember those 2. Basically, when it came about there was a jam with a band and there was no PA at the place we did it or didn't feel like hooking one up, we just grabbed an amp and off we went. That JC-120 worked so well we often ran a horn player through it instead of the PA when it was there.

[stein]

If your not worried about quality then just plug it into what ever you have and like I said it will work but sonic s will not be good. Did you figure out if you play loud or soft when you want to do this? If the answer is loud then you may very well damage what ever you use as a surrogate because guitar amps are for the most part designed to run a guitar. The acoustic guitar amp's that have a microphone input would work a lot better then a regular guitar amp.

Running other instruments besides a guitar through a guitar amp will not damage it. In fact, a guitar amp is better equipped to handle most things than a lot of other amplification systems...you can overload a guitar amp at the input, or turn it up where a lot of amps aren't safe at their limits.

 

Running a bass through a guitar amp may damage the speaker, but not the amp. And that would be because the bass frequencies cause the speaker to over-extend, but you can HEAR that if it is the case. Vocals and horns are well within the range of a guitar. Some keys can get pretty low in frequency, but guitar amps are often used for keys without issues.

[T Bone]

Thanks again guys. I will be mostly working at lower volumes, at least to start off. Just need to work on the singing, plus get used to singing while plating. I recall there being a sort of learning curve. While I could start off unamplified, I can hear it better amped (amp also becomes monitor) and the dynamics are different with a mic.

 

As to using the Marshall, it's the only amp I saved from my vintage collection (when I had 17 amps, 13 were Fenders, the newest was 1964, oldest amp was 1949ish). There's a reason it was spared.

 

It may be the PA version, but it's a small box Marshall 20 watt. Made in guitar, bass and PA versions, there was very little difference between it and the guitar version. I need to check the model number on it, but even if the number is different, it's essentially a 6120, from 1971. One of the sweetest sounding (and from what I hear, most sought after) guitar amps ever. Quite rare and valuable. They reissued them awhile back (all hand wired) and even those are sought after and costly.

[kidblast]

Well here is a different twist... not sure how this applies to you and your plans but here goes. When you can swing it get a low end mixer with DSP effects. (any 2 to 4 channel Berhinger would do the trick) If you have an acoustic with a pickup, plug it into the board, plug in your mic, plug in a set of headphones. if no acoustic, fine just plug in what ever you have.

 

Dial in the desired effects (or none at first so you can really focus on pitch) tune up, and go! don't need speakers/amp, don't need to worry about bugging neighbors and or fam members, and you will have no problem at all hearing your voice!

 

I've been playing / singing professionally for 40+ years, with out constant practice, singers can loose range, breathing and pitch quickly, (can't forget, the voice is an instrument, and needs to be worked to stay sharp) I do this all the time and it really helps keep the pipes in good shape.

[RaysEpiphone]

Running other instruments besides a guitar through a guitar amp will not damage it. In fact, a guitar amp is better equipped to handle most things than a lot of other amplification systems...you can overload a guitar amp at the input, or turn it up where a lot of amps aren't safe at their limits.

 

Running a bass through a guitar amp may damage the speaker, but not the amp. And that would be because the bass frequencies cause the speaker to over-extend, but you can HEAR that if it is the case. Vocals and horns are well within the range of a guitar. Some keys can get pretty low in frequency, but guitar amps are often used for keys without issues.

 

 

This will depend on what amp you talking about. Buddy of mine had a 1970's Fender Twin Reverb 100watt amp that was fine running a guitar and a mic but with out a graphic EQ you couldn't separate the frequencies to the proper area's for a voice and/or a guitar. With that in mind if you have a high stage volume its not going to be easy to control a vocal mic with out some extra dynamics and at least a basic mixer and isolated speaker's made for PA use.

[milod]

yabut...

 

back in the olden days, any amplification for voice was considered good, even though it tended to be horrid and not enuf to be heard over the electric guitars in most bands...

 

<grin>

 

I think that's why so many guys in my general age group ruined whatever they had for a voice.

 

m

[kidblast]

then of course there's the ears.......

[milod]

Kid...

 

I remember driving a cupla hours from a gig, then taking a shower in the college dorm and not hearing the water...

 

Add a lot of firearms from personal to crew served to 155 mm. howitzers and I think I'm incredibly lucky that I can hear and don't have the constant ringing some folks have. Oh - and no, I was never in the military. <grin>

 

But nobody really thought that much about hearing damage with small arms or rock bands in the 50s, 60s and even into the 70s. In the '60s '70s I usually wore plugs around artillery, but... never when around small arms or amps.

 

m

[T Bone]

Well here is a different twist... not sure how this applies to you and your plans but here goes. When you can swing it get a low end mixer with DSP effects. (any 2 to 4 channel Berhinger would do the trick) If you have an acoustic with a pickup, plug it into the board, plug in your mic, plug in a set of headphones. if no acoustic, fine just plug in what ever you have.

 

Dial in the desired effects (or none at first so you can really focus on pitch) tune up, and go! don't need speakers/amp, don't need to worry about bugging neighbors and or fam members, and you will have no problem at all hearing your voice!

 

I've been playing / singing professionally for 40+ years, with out constant practice, singers can loose range, breathing and pitch quickly, (can't forget, the voice is an instrument, and needs to be worked to stay sharp) I do this all the time and it really helps keep the pipes in good shape.

This is of course a great idea. And I might just find one cheap enough to make it worthwhile (remember, planning to purchase a full PA in a bit less than a year). Actually, if I have the refund I'd expect coming (depends on how much I travel the rest of this year for work), a very nice PA will be no trouble at all. And if I don't procrastinate (like I did this year), I could have that refund by as early as the end of Feb./beginning of March. So we're now looking at maybe 9 months. An amp would do until then, but a cheap (decent) mixer still might be worth having around.

 

 

This will depend on what amp you talking about. Buddy of mine had a 1970's Fender Twin Reverb 100watt amp that was fine running a guitar and a mic but with out a graphic EQ you couldn't separate the frequencies to the proper area's for a voice and/or a guitar. With that in mind if you have a high stage volume its not going to be easy to control a vocal mic with out some extra dynamics and at least a basic mixer and isolated speaker's made for PA use.

Well, there will be no stage volume involved, again, this is merely for practice at home.

 

then of course there's the ears.......

Ears are great! (And like Milod with his, I am amazed mine still work as well as they do, with many of rthe same hazzards having been put to them). But again (ans as you know from your own experience I'm sure), there are different dynamics when using a mic, combined with the fact that it is easier to keep it right with monitor (amp as monitor) or headphones (as in your other suggestion).

 

I'll try a few out next week guys (going to be away from the house most of this week). I'll let y'all know what seems to work for me.

[SweetMarie]

Hi T-Bone!

 

Just an update on the Excelsior amp idea-

The mic input is pretty clean and would be fine for vocals as long as you're not a screamer (or a Wagnerian baritone)

The 15 inch speaker does let the low end carry and I suspect a real screamer might induce some nasty distortion...

the amp breaks up beautifully with guitars though. Use those knobs on your guitar and don't worry about the lack of a tone knob.

The tone actually reminds me of those Epiphone Electar amps from the 40's--and it's even better looking in person!