jchabalk Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 This is probably a pretty basic question but it's driving me mad. I recently picked up a new acoustic that has slotted bridge pin holes. I have a couple of gibson acoustics that all have unslotted (round) bridge pin holes. The bridge pins have very gentle slots carved into them (similar to gibson bridge pins but but ebony rather than plastic). I'm getting a really annoying buzz that i'm pretty sure is coming from the ball ends vibrating against the bridge pins. I've restrung the guitar and also tried to reseat the strings in the pin holes and while the problem persists it's switched which strings its associated with so i'm pretty sure i'm onto something. I've also looked around online and while i'm not certain about the problem, what i've found reinforces my suspicions. A few questions for you more experienced with these that me: 1) Should i put the bridge pin in with the slot facing backwards (slot towards the tail of the guitar), using the circular part of the pin to force the string into the slot in the bridge? 2) Should the ball end be firmly wedged up into the bridge plate and bridge pin with these guitars, or should the string be inserted further into the hole so the tension of the bridge pin on the string cause it to stay in place? This seems so simple and i've restrung my other acoustics a thousand times (well, maybe 80 times anyway) and never had this issue. The guitar is a Santa Cruz OM Here's a picture of the slotted bridge pin holes, this isn't my guitar, just an example that matches: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 The ball end of the string should fetch up firmly against the underside of the bridgeplate. If the slot through the bridge is big enough to accommodate the doubled-over end of the string above the ball end, you could turn the bridge pins around as an experiment to see if you can still pull the ball end up all the way to the underside of the bridgeplate. The ball ends should not "float" in space. Often, you see unslotted bridge pins in a bridge like this. It could be that the string through-slots in the bridge are worn a little oversize, or that you are using a lighter-gauge string than the bridge is slotted for. You might also look into using strings with silk wrappings over the doubled part of the string ends (Gibson J-200 strings, for example), as these wrapped-end strings may be just enough fatter to fill the slot if it is too big. I might also call Santa Cruz and see what they suggest, particularly if it is a new or nearly-new guitar.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Buzzing/rattling at this location makes me think 'suspended ball' or balls. I had this issue, years ago with a non-slotted bridge. When I pushed one of the pins 'home', it grabbed the winding above the ball, then pulled the ball (a cylindrical spacer really) away from the sound board. This thing rattled like sleigh bells. A quick look with a mirror and flashlight revealed the ball hanging 1/4" below the sound board. Oddly, it was one of the higher wires. I must have gotten the wire wedged between the pin and hole. This can also happen when pushing the pin 'home' on the heavier strings if the pin slot is too narrow. What happens is the string becomes wedged between the pin hole/slot and the pin. Pushing the pin deeper pulls the string with it, causing the ball end to suspend. I have this situation on my main player. The low E string on the set of mediums is just a tad too big for the pin slot. No worries. I push the pin in until it stops, then just a slight bit more. The pin, even though it sits about 1/8" higher than the other five, is safe and secure and hasn't moved in 3 years (I really gotta replace those Elixirs). This 'should' not be a problem with a slotted bridge. If done correctly, a slotted bridge should hold the strings in place, with or without a pin in it's respective hole. Check your installation. Make sure the ball is against the sound board and you don't have a situation where the windings above the ball grabs the slot, mimicking a properly seated ball. You may need a mirror or use digital examination to verify ball placement. For goodness sake don't try to force the pin deeper into the hole. You'll either end up expanding the hole to the point it won't hold pins any more or, worse, you may crack the top. Just the least bit of thumb pressure to wedge the pin in place to keep it from falling out should be enough. If you cannot remove the pins with your fingers, you're pressing them in too tight. If you have a suspended ball, shoving the pin deeper will only make the problem worse. First off, make a visual or digital inspection of the area for any balls not firmly against the sound board. Adjust as necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Buzzing/rattling at this location makes me think 'suspended ball' or balls. You may need a mirror or use digital examination to verify ball placement. If you have a suspended ball, shoving the pin deeper will only make the problem worse. First off, make a visual or digital inspection of the area for any balls not firmly against the sound board. Adjust as necessary. This whole discussion is making me very uncomfortable. I thought balls were supposed to be suspended......... ..... And I'm NOT going to shove the pin deeper. Where is Wily when you need him? He may be doubled up on the floor looking for suspended balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 i recently restrung a guitar with this set up and ran into a buzz. I'm not sure how to describe what i found, but i will try................ the doubled over part of the string (essentially the "knot" attaching it to the ball) was really long. with the slotted hole, it reached closer to the saddle and up onto the saddle. there ended up being a slight gap between the string and the saddle. the doubled over part touched the back half of the saddle, and that's where the string rested. then the doubled part ended, and the normal part was suspended above the front half of the saddle. pluck the string, it would vibrate and come into contact with the saddle creating a buzz. I hope i explained that in a way that can be visualized b/c i don't have a picture. I also hope it helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 i recently restrung a guitar with this set up and ran into a buzz. I'm not sure how to describe what i found, but i will try................ the doubled over part of the string (essentially the "knot" attaching it to the ball) was really long. with the slotted hole, it reached closer to the saddle and up onto the saddle. there ended up being a slight gap between the string and the saddle. the doubled over part touched the back half of the saddle, and that's where the string rested. then the doubled part ended, and the normal part was suspended above the front half of the saddle. pluck the string, it would vibrate and come into contact with the saddle creating a buzz. I hope i explained that in a way that can be visualized b/c i don't have a picture. I also hope it helps! what sort of strings ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 i recently restrung a guitar with this set up and ran into a buzz. I'm not sure how to describe what i found, but i will try................ the doubled over part of the string (essentially the "knot" attaching it to the ball) was really long. with the slotted hole, it reached closer to the saddle and up onto the saddle. there ended up being a slight gap between the string and the saddle. the doubled over part touched the back half of the saddle, and that's where the string rested. then the doubled part ended, and the normal part was suspended above the front half of the saddle. pluck the string, it would vibrate and come into contact with the saddle creating a buzz. That is not a good situation. The doubled part of the string should not rest on the saddle. I'd look for different strings. With a normal thickness bridge and bridgeplate, the doubled part of the string end should just barely be visible at the top of the bridge slot. Typically, that doubled part is about 1/2" (12mm) long above the ball end, and should never reach the saddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Might sliding an old ball-end, off the previous set, help shorten up the string so that the windings do not protrude from the bridge? Good diagnosis of the buzz, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 the doubled over part of the string (essentially the "knot" attaching it to the ball) was really long. with the slotted hole, it reached closer to the saddle and up onto the saddle. Even with an extra-long wrap on the string and aggressive ramp on the bridge, my first worry would be that bridge plate damage is allowing the ball to pull partway up the slot/hole into the plate. Have you had a look at it? -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarrr Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 +1 rar pull the strings off, put a digital camera on macro lens and photo the under side of the bridge plate... if the ball end has pushed too far into the plate, that will cause a fuzz/buzz etc. I have a couple gits with slotted bridge/round pins, good way to go in a lot of situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 lol. I was just trying to help him! I actually don't have a problem here. This was just a defective string. the doubled part of the low E was longer than normal. Simply an anomaly and bad string. no big deal! I was in a rush changing strings and didn't notice it at first. Once I did, I simply replaced that one string... no more issue. It happened just a couple of days ago so it was fresh in my mind. I thought it might be possible that the OP had the same issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 This whole discussion is making me very uncomfortable. I thought balls were supposed to be suspended......... ..... And I'm NOT going to shove the pin deeper. Where is Wily when you need him? He may be doubled up on the floor looking for suspended balls. Let's try to act like adults here.... To answer the 'doubled up' end. IF the wrappings above the ball extend far enough to touch or go over the saddle, then the wrappings are too long and the string, effectively defective. Or the slotting is cut too deep towards the saddle. According the aforeposted picture, it does not appear that the slot is cut too deeply. But... there are some saddles that are a might close to the pins, right out of the factory. In which case the subject string might not normally have presented a problem. The string may be within functional specs for a unmodified bridge. As such, it would be your problem, not the guitar mfr or string mfr. You could explain the situation to the guitar shop where you bought the strings and ask for a replacement of a defective string. Given their cost, I wouldn't spend a lot of time begging for a replacement. Just buy a new set and see how they work. There could be day-to-day variations within a manufacturer or string type. If you get a similar problem with a different set, try a different brand or type which may have shorter windings. Armed with this knowledge, find out what length of windings work with this guitar, then measure before you purchase strings for this guitar in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 I'm not sure that was the problem for the OP. I was just sharing a problem I saw one time. I work at a music store so I see a lot. In that case, replacing the string fixed it. Not sure yet what cased the problem for the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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