blindboygrunt Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 reading the post previous about the john hiatt models and how some have been duds .. and i think nick added that the hog guitars have a variation , no two the same .... is it just gibson that this happens with ? i know this much , that i a guitar sits unplayed for a time the. it can feel a little stiff ( or however you want to descibe it ) i've experienced that myself , you can hear it opening after an amount of strumming .....could be a string thing , a wood thing , or the atmosphere changing with body heat .... i dont know ... i have a little trouble with the thought that theres such a stong held tale about gibsons.... maybe something to do with the change of build in the 70's that mustve had an effect ... but how come martins arent famous for this up and down standard in their guitars ? or lowden ? or ovation ... whoever ... surely to goodness that one of the worlds largest guitar manufacturers can figure out this ? its either the wood .... and gibson havent got this weird forest that they get wood from that is made up of freaky trees that may grow into whatever they want ..... or the building process .... which cant be that different from one to the next ??? cant get my little brain to accept what i read all the time p.s. sorry if using your name at the start made this sound directed at you ... its not at anyone in particular ... theres no denying your knowledge in this forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Morton Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 reading the post previous about the john hiatt models and how some have been duds .. and i think nick added that the hog guitars have a variation , no two the same .... is it just gibson that this happens with ? i know this much , that i a guitar sits unplayed for a time the. it can feel a little stiff ( or however you want to descibe it ) i've experienced that myself , you can hear it opening after an amount of strumming .....could be a string thing , a wood thing , or the atmosphere changing with body heat .... i dont know ... i have a little trouble with the thought that theres such a stong held tale about gibsons.... maybe something to do with the change of build in the 70's that mustve had an effect ... but how come martins arent famous for this up and down standard in their guitars ? or lowden ? or ovation ... whoever ... surely to goodness that one of the worlds largest guitar manufacturers can figure out this ? its either the wood .... and gibson havent got this weird forest that they get wood from that is made up of freaky trees that may grow into whatever they want ..... or the building process .... which cant be that different from one to the next ??? cant get my little brain to accept what i read all the time p.s. sorry if using your name at the start made this sound directed at you ... its not at anyone in particular ... theres no denying your knowledge in this forum NO two will be the same of any brand and model in my opinion. For the most part everything is the same way in the build process except the pieces of wood. They will be different. the guitars may look identical but one may weigh 12 ounces more? That is why it is imortant to play different examples till you fall inlove with one. In a forest one tree may be thick boned and the next may be a bean pole / their densities vary. Just my opinion. JM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Personally, from what I have played, experienced, and tried, Martins are just as variable as any brand, and are different from one to another just the same as Gibsons are. I believe in the sample to sample thing in that two of the same guitar can be very different, but I belive that to say Gibsons are more so is pure myth. And, I read it from almost always Martin guys or Martin forums. I say "read" becuause in real life, I haven't heard this from guitar players that I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 At least on this forum, I think people are more tuned into subtle variations in sound than others might be. We sort of live and breathe Gibsons, and see differences that others who are less obsessed with guitars and music simply can't fathom. I see this in my professional life as well. The boats that I work with are all designed and built to very tight rules (like formula 1 race cars, for example). Even to very knowledgeable sailors, the differences between boats can be hard to either identify or appreciate. For those of us who design, build, and control them, the differences between them are as obvious as chalk and cheese. Jeremy lays this out clearly: even when the design and construction processes are identical, no two pieces of wood are alike. Yes, once they are cut, planed, and assembled into two J-45's they are going to look virtually identical, but the combined pieces of wood, unless they all came from the same parts of the same trees cut at the same time, can yield surprising variations in tone, even though there should always be a strong family resemblance. In a small custom shop, the luthier may tap-test numerous pieces of wood before finding the combination that best suits the client's needs or the expectations of the luthier. The great skill those luthiers have is the ability to understand how subtle differences in wood tones add up to the final "voice" the guitar will have. Not even a high-quality production shop is likely to spend that amount of time and effort in selecting the wood for each guitar in this manner. This isn't like buying a new car, where you can rightly expect the blue Mercedes and the grey one to be exactly same in every way except for the color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 And lets not forget the strings. You might have two identical J-45's, even made from same tree, cut at same time, but if one has even a little older strings it will sound different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Well that's just great. The jig is up; now *everybody"s gonna know about Gibson's Weird Forest of Freaky Trees. Thanks a lot. ; ). Don't worry about other people's " a little knowledge (of convenient Gibson stereotypes) is a dangerous thing"; enjoy the fact that you've put in the effort to be able to hear the subtle differences in guitars. Variation just adds to the intangible mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Don't worry about other people's " a little knowledge (of convenient Gibson stereotypes) is a dangerous thing", & enjoy the fact that you've put in the effort to be able to hear the subtle differences in guitars. Variation just adds to intangible mystery. Amen, brother. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarrr Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Wood is a non-linear material by nature and no two pieces are the exact same..... ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Wood is a non-linear material by nature and no two pieces are the exact same..... ever. Or as we say in my world, wood is an anisotropic (non-isotropic) material. If you want two J-45's that sound exactly alike, machine them out of a billet of aluminum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 The reality is, Gibson had a fairly notable low-point, that much is generally accepted, this nugget gets repeated 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th hand and it becomes the uniform opinion. Like you'll see on AGF on a daily basis... top all that off with a lot of US politics invading discussion forums. As a nation they just simply can't leave politics at the door (an undeniable fact) and there are many who don't like Gibsons politics, or perceived politics. To the outsider, following this on guitar forums becomes a point for hilarity, some people like to plummet depths, some people like to join in on gang mentality, when the two mix along with n'th hand info you get the nonsense we see about Gibsons on a daily basis. Who knows what we'll see tomorrow, now that people are talking gay politics on here I'm sure by tomorrow Ren will have made love to the Devil on a coffee table shaped like a Martin, but it wont have a cracked bridge according to UMGF, a solidly constructed table they will yell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 To the outsider, following this on guitar forums becomes a point for hilarity, some people like to plummet depths, some people like to join in on gang mentality, when the two mix along with n'th hand info you get the nonsense we see about Gibsons on a daily basis. Who knows what we'll see tomorrow, now that people are talking gay politics on here I'm sure by tomorrow Ren will have made love to the Devil on a coffee table shaped like a Martin, but it wont have a cracked bridge according to UMGF, a solidly constructed table they will yell. Step away from the edge, breathe deeply, and put your hands in the air. The friendly man in the white coat has a nice, warm blanket equipped with several comfortable belts he would like to wrap around you...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Step away from the edge, breathe deeply, and put your hands in the air. The friendly man in the white coat has a nice, warm blanket equipped with several comfortable belts he would like to wrap around you...... Sounds a bit like bondage, Nick, you may need to step back from the edge more than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Sounds a bit like bondage, Nick, you may need to step back from the edge more than me. I'm a bit tied up with something right now. I'll get back to you later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 And lets not forget the strings. You might have two identical J-45's, even made from same tree, cut at same time, but if one has even a little older strings it will sound different. see now that kinda thought makes a lot more sense than the rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 And lets not forget the strings. You might have two identical J-45's, even made from same tree, cut at same time, but if one has even a little older strings it will sound different. That's pretty much a given. With all the variables--including the age and type of strings, not to mention picks, nails, etc--the chances of any two J-45's sounding exactly the same are fairly remote. The string variable is a huge concern if you are trying to A-B guitars hanging on the wall in a store to decide which one to buy. It would be nice if the guitar store would have a card next to the guitar saying what the installed strings were, and when they were installed. Even at home, where I control the string changes, I may never do a proper A-B comparison between my SJ and my old J-45, since I usually only change strings on one guitar at a time. Even if I did, what if one set of strings was older (and therefore more oxidised) right out of the box? (I really am feeling the need to step away from the edge now.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarrr Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 When stacks of new guitar wood are going through the drying process, do some pieces dry out more than others.... don't think about it too much or you'll wake up in a cold sweat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Even at home, where I control the string changes, I may never do a proper A-B comparison between my SJ and my old J-45, since I usually only change strings on one guitar at a time. Even if I did, what if one set of strings was older (and therefore more oxidised) right out of the box? (I really am feeling the need to step away from the edge now.) That would be a worthwhile read. Even though "no two are alike", it would be interesting to compare similar models of old and new. I think the recent Gibson montana stuff is the best ever made, or at least as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 That would be a worthwhile read. Even though "no two are alike", it would be interesting to compare similar models of old and new. I think the recent Gibson montana stuff is the best ever made, or at least as good. The two Gibson Montana guitars I own--L-OO Legend and Fuller's 1943 SJ--are absolutely superb. The SJ is quite different from my '48 J-45 ('68 top), but I would not say that one is better than the other. If anything, the new SJ has better sustain, and the old J-45 more flat-picked punch. I agree that the best guitars coming out of Bozeman are probably as good out of the box as most vintage Gibsons from the golden age (through the mid 50's) probably were when they were new. If I were young, I would be hand-selecting a variety of new Gibsons to keep for the indefinite future. If they are this good when new, who knows what they will be like in 40 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 My Southern Jumbo leans up in the corner of the bedroom, stable temp and humidity, yadda yadda. Day One it sounds like the only guitar on the planet, the next day it can sound like metric left-handed a$$. Such is life. "When all else fails, lower your standards". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.