Epi LP or Gibson LP?

[milod]

Trance...

 

Tokai isn't a problem of quality but one might note that the company had not been active in the US for ages until very recently, unlike Ibanez for example.

 

Usually the better the local national presence, the better one might expect service. In the U.S., I'd be concerned with a new piece. With a used piece... with time for questionable woods to cure, etc... I'd be more inclined to trust a used piece as a used piece.

 

Neither Tokai nor Ibanez are the companies or guitars they were in the '70s "patent infringement" days when there were, indeed, many guitars from Japan that rivaled or exceeded quality of similar designs made in the US. Ain't quite the case today.

 

I think too that even within a Gibson vs. Epi - or Martin vs. its particle board MIM material, etc., we're often talking about a good solid workmanlike tool by a good, solid company, vs. a "work of art" musical instrument.

 

Again, in the US, Tokai functionally isn't nowadays.

 

Now when it comes to value of musical instruments?

 

At the higher end we have instruments that a talented pro or advanced amateur can tell a difference - and a less talented pro or amateur may want for appearance's sake and/or for performance "show."

 

I know for example how pro classical violinists seem to have a "high end instrument" thing. I doubt I could tell the difference listening; nor to a $100 bow compared to a $10,000 bow. But they can, and feel that it makes a difference in their playing whether alone or as a member of an orchestra. For example, 35 years ago a lady family friend who played with a major U.S. symphony orchestra was playing "nothing special." How much? "About $30,000..."

 

m

[Aster1]

Good points. Now that I'm looking into this some, I can't believe how MANY different models there are in LP's!! I would want to find just a more vintage 50-60's sounding version that had an easy playing neck (loosing finger/hand strength with a bum neck disk issue.

 

Any suggestions to narrow the 130 different versions (between Epi & Gibson together) will be appreciated.

 

Aster

[milod]

Aster...

 

I'd love to suggest something or other but frankly I think it's more likely to be your own "feel" rather than price tags or name on the headstock.

 

Which is why I said, find the store with the most of 'em, check amps or bring your own so it'll sound about the same, then plan on a heck of a fun time and probably sore fingers tryin' 'em out.

 

Seriously, a neck I may absolutely love, and that gives me a feeling that the guitar is playing itself may be near agony for somebody else...

 

m

[UCSF2012]

Good points. Now that I'm looking into this some, I can't believe how MANY different models there are in LP's!! I would want to find just a more vintage 50-60's sounding version that had an easy playing neck (loosing finger/hand strength with a bum neck disk issue.

 

Any suggestions to narrow the 130 different versions (between Epi & Gibson together) will be appreciated.

 

Aster

 

 

If you want Epiphone, get the Prophecy Plus GX. Has 2 extra frets, push/pull pots, hot 490/498 pickups, and quilt maple top (expensive!!! It's a $500 upgrade if you're buying a Suhr guitar.) It's only $600 with case. The closest Gibson equivalent is the Studio 2013 wine red, gold hardware. Regular 22 frets, push/pull pots, hot 490/498 pickups. Unfortunately, it has Gibson's popular stump wood. All for $1399.

 

The Gibson Tribute Future Mini-Etune has slightly hotter pickups, the 57's. This is my favorite pickups, but this guitar doesn't have the push-pull pots. $1200 and you get stump wood.

 

There's another variant that has Burstbucker's, but it's a variation on the same theme.

 

If you have a little more money to spend, the 2013 Standard with AAAA maple can go for about 2.2-2.4k. Has all the fancy gadgetry available only on 2013 models (coil tap, bypass, phase change). The LP Traditional has single/double coil push-pull pots, but it's still hoTTT and goes for 1.8-2k. All of these are roughly equal to the Epiphone Prophecy in SOUND and wood quality (plus some USA manufacturing defects), but it's a Gibson.

[UCSF2012]

2013 is an awesome year for LP's, for no other reason than new electronics, giving more sound selections. The 3 best LP's (considering sound quality and looks, NOT considering price) are:

 

Gibson LP Traditional, 2013 and earlier (no bypass, phaseing on any of them, so year doesn't matter)

Gibson LP Standard Premium (all the toys if you can afford it)

Epiphone LP Prophecy Plus GX (no bypass, phasing)

 

I havn't yet tried the '59, but I don't think I will at 6k. It's more about the story than the guitar.

[BobF_]

A quick note about resale, which I think is the LAST thing to consider when buying a guitar to play:

 

Buy a $2500 guitar and sell it for $2000 some time later. You're out $500 and you've given up the use of another $2000 for the interim.

 

Buy a $700 guitar and sell it for $200 some time later. You're out $500 and you've given up the use of another $200 for the interim.

 

 

If you're buying a guitar to play every day, it's not realistic to expect it to appreciate or even hold value. **** happens. Scratches, dents and dings matter for resale value. You *might* get lucky and have a dividend declared in the form of something special about your guitar being announced after the fact ... I wouldn't count on this though.

 

If the $2500 guitar speaks to you; if it's your muse - buy it and don't think twice about what you've spent.

 

Ditto for the $700 guitar.

[UCSF2012]

A quick note about resale, which I think is the LAST thing to consider when buying a guitar to play:

 

Buy a $2500 guitar and sell it for $2000 some time later. You're out $500 and you've given up the use of another $2000 for the interim.

 

Buy a $700 guitar and sell it for $200 some time later. You're out $500 and you've given up the use of another $200 for the interim.

 

 

If you're buying a guitar to play every day, it's not realistic to expect it to appreciate or even hold value. **** happens. Scratches, dents and dings matter for resale value. You *might* get lucky and have a dividend declared in the form of something special about your guitar being announced after the fact ... I wouldn't count on this though.

 

If the $2500 guitar speaks to you; if it's your muse - buy it and don't think twice about what you've spent.

 

Ditto for the $700 guitar.

 

Except the number's more like, spend 2.5k, sell for 1.5-2k. Spend $700, you get back about $450.

[BobF_]

Except the number's more like, spend 2.5k, sell for 1.5-2k. Spend $700, you get back about $450.

 

True in a lot of cases. I was being generous towards the more expensive gits to make a point that is stronger with your numbers, but doesn't need them.

[stein]

Milod has made this point many times, and I agree with it: when you set out to spend more money, it makes more sense to be able to try it first.

 

At any price point, there are a lot of "intangables". As it is, just my opinion, there are a lot more intangables with a Gibby than your average Epi.

 

The intangables I speak of can't bee seen in pictures, and can barely be described. There are things you CAN'T order in the mail at any price. Explaining to another or describing a guitar you REALLY love to play rarely involves features or specs, IMO.

 

To me, what makes a guitar worth more to ME has to do with certain aspects of the guitar like feel, balence, and sound. Obviously, that can only be done in person. Picking a guitar out of a selection, finding that 1 out of 10, that sort of thing-there is VALUE there. And the more money spent, the more that becomes important.

 

The inverse of that is also true, in that if you don't find "the one" based on feel and sound, the money can't go as far. You can't expect to get lucky depending on luck.

 

Personally, there are a lot of questions I might ask about a guitar, like the weight, how much shoulder to the neck shape, lots of things to help me better guess which I MIGHT like better than another. But even then, that is only because of the many I have played and compared. And as much as I think I have learned, that's only my own taste and preference. We could only describe things to each other that we have experienced, and even then, we react differently. Even if we knew what the other was talking about, we might not agree or feel the same. That's important because what makes a truly GREAT instrument is largely based on preference.

 

I used to shop a lot, because I enjoyed it. Shopping for guitars, to me, is pure fun. I'd rather do that than fish, or a lot of things. Having done a lot of it, most of the time, almost always, when I spot a guitar on the wall even in person, it more likely doesn't do anything specail and back it goes. More often than not. Not because they are bad, they just aren't "special". I don't expect a guitar to turn my crank, regardless of what it is.

 

Having expressed that, I would have no problem spending 300 bucks online for average or good. Chances are it will be acceptable and fun. But if I have a good wad to spend, like GIBSON cash in my pocket, I ain't parting unless that guitar is SPECIAL to me. I have to feel that.

[AlanH]

I've previously owned two Epi LPs and currently own both a Gibby LP and a Gibby SG. I do prefer the Gibsons because I find that the quality of the woods and the feel of the necks offers a better playing experience....as I perceive it. I'm not so sure how an earlier poster has concluded that the woods are better on Epis than Gibbys of up to $2.5K in value???? Because the Epis have a veneer finish there's no way you can tell what the body woods are like overall, although you can tell differences with the neck and fretboard. Perhaps the fact that my Gibsons are faded models actually gives me a more organic "feel" compared to my old Epis which did have the veneer and fairly thick poly coating which might have taken that element of the "feel" away. However, I do not doubt that with any electric guitar electronics have the biggest effect on tone and, in that regard, many Epis are just as well (if not better) specced as their Gibson counterparts if you consider the Tribute type Epi models. What's more I cannot justify paying for the higher priced, more "blinged up" Gibson models because they are not better players than their faded/studio versions. With Gibsons prices go up considerably for full nitro finishes, binding and then varying selected grades of maple cap. So, my choice (and it's a personal one) is to have a less pretty Gibson LP for the same price as a prettier, but equally well specced Epiphone LP.

 

BTW, to part correct an earlier post, neck binding on Gibsons is installed in a completely different way to that of Epiphones and I know that that process results in a significant price hike across the Gibson range. That might explain why they feel more flush to the neck/fretboard on an Epi.

[Cyphre]

As far as Les Paul styled guitars go, bang for the buck I'd go with Agile or Ibanez over Epiphone... & unless you are a professional or semi-professional guitar player or just have a lot of cash to throw around I'd stick any of with those 3 manufacturers over Gibson. Why? Because the cost to quality ratio for a Gibby vs these other very nice instruments renders the Gibson an impractical choice for most.

[UCSF2012]

I've previously owned two Epi LPs and currently own both a Gibby LP and a Gibby SG. I do prefer the Gibsons because I find that the quality of the woods and the feel of the necks offers a better playing experience....as I perceive it. I'm not so sure how an earlier poster has concluded that the woods are better on Epis than Gibbys of up to $2.5K in value???? Because the Epis have a veneer finish there's no way you can tell what the body woods are like overall, although you can tell differences with the neck and fretboard. Perhaps the fact that my Gibsons are faded models actually gives me a more organic "feel" compared to my old Epis which did have the veneer and fairly thick poly coating which might have taken that element of the "feel" away. However, I do not doubt that with any electric guitar electronics have the biggest effect on tone and, in that regard, many Epis are just as well (if not better) specced as their Gibson counterparts if you consider the Tribute type Epi models. What's more I cannot justify paying for the higher priced, more "blinged up" Gibson models because they are not better players than their faded/studio versions. With Gibsons prices go up considerably for full nitro finishes, binding and then varying selected grades of maple cap. So, my choice (and it's a personal one) is to have a less pretty Gibson LP for the same price as a prettier, but equally well specced Epiphone LP.

 

BTW, to part correct an earlier post, neck binding on Gibsons is installed in a completely different way to that of Epiphones and I know that that process results in a significant price hike across the Gibson range. That might explain why they feel more flush to the neck/fretboard on an Epi.

 

And the way to correct the neck binding issue is you sand it down at the very last step. This removes the "plus," as we call it. Then you paint/gloss it. On 3 of my Gibsons, this wasn't done at all. On my 2013 Standard Premium, this wasn't done completely. I really do hope Gibson's luthiers start caring more about their workmanship if they're going to charge this kind of premium. A 2.4k Suhr guitar is perfect!

 

Woods are graded in quality. Laminate vs solid. 1 piece vs 2 piece vs 3 piece. Flame density, etc. Epiphone uses the same grade wood in their $600 guitar as Gibson in their 2.4k Guitar

[Ed Zeplin]

It's psychology. When something costs more, it must be better. Then, we start brainstorming justifications. It's like an Oreo's cookie and a Wal-Mart cookie. The Keebler one must be better, because it's Keebler, not Wal-Mart.

 

Gibson

Pros: Sound

Resale value

Sometimes Plek'd

Inherent value placed on the Gibson brand, despite problems

 

Cons: Uneven binding where neck meets fingerboard

Uneven binding where plastic binding meets body wood

Cheap woods until you meet the 2.5k price point

Paint overlaps

Body binding is made of plastic. It's supposed to be a strip of maple.

 

Epiphone

Pros: Sound

Premium woods, even at the $400 price point

Nearly perfect workmanship. No uneven binding anywhere

Headstock design looks a bit better than Gibson's

 

Cons: Poor resale value

Frets unpolished, need to vibrato extensively to smooth them out.

Paint overlaps

 

A Gibson and Epiphone will sound the same, if you put the same electronics into them and if they have the same wood combination. Not a hint of a difference. It's just a matter of workmanship put into the guitar. I own 4 Gibsons, and every one of them have more workmanship problems than the Epiphones. Feel the neck where it meets the fingerboard.... you feel the gap? I do, on every single Gibson. When you get a nicer Gibson with the plastic binding around the body, feel the area where the plastic meets the wood. Feel the gap? ...I do. Do the same thing for an Epiphone....feel a gap? ...absolutely not. The biggest downside to an Epiphone is that the frets are unpolished when new. I had to sit there for half an hour vibratoing every string over and over. Now the bends are silky smooth.

 

Personally, I love Epiphone Custom Shop guitars the most. Amazing sound, great build

 

The cons you list for Gibson can and do happen to all brands. No one manufacturer is immune to defects. That is ridiculous.

 

And since when has Gibson binding been maple?

 

These gaps in the binding you tell of is due to the finish. Epis have thick coats of poly which is basically a plastic cocoon so you have more to work with when polishing. Giibson is nitro and much thinner but i dont see what you say on my LP.

 

No epis aside from Elitists or high dollar modlels like the Lennon or McCartney get premium wood.

 

It seems that binding is very important to you.

[Supersonic]

Epiphone uses the same grade wood in their $600 guitar as Gibson in their 2.4k Guitar

 

 

 

Gibson

Pros: Sound

Resale value

Sometimes Plek'd

Inherent value placed on the Gibson brand, despite problems

 

Cons: Uneven binding where neck meets fingerboard

Uneven binding where plastic binding meets body wood

Cheap woods until you meet the 2.5k price point

Paint overlaps

Body binding is made of plastic. It's supposed to be a strip of maple.

 

Epiphone

Pros: Sound

Premium woods, even at the $400 price point

Nearly perfect workmanship. No uneven binding anywhere

Headstock design looks a bit better than Gibson's

 

Cons: Poor resale value

Frets unpolished, need to vibrato extensively to smooth them out.

Paint overlaps

 

With all due respect sir, I don't think you know what the hell you are talking about.

[Ed Zeplin]

With all due respect sir, I don't think you know what the hell you are talking about.

 

 

+ 1

[UCSF2012]

Oh, there will always be non-believers. Feel the neck in your guitar where the mahogany meets the rosewood. Do you feel anything? You can even see the edges....

 

 

Take sand paper, polish it from the direction of rosewood to mahogany, and that plus goes away. That's all it takes. Then you paint it.

[Ed Zeplin]

Oh, there will always be non-believers. Feel the neck in your guitar where the mahogany meets the rosewood. Do you feel anything? You can even see the edges....

 

 

Take sand paper, polish it from the direction of rosewood to mahogany, and that plus goes away. That's all it takes. Then you paint it.

 

Big deal. It doesn't affect the playability at all. I wouldn't call that a defect. More of a design quirk. That is not a gap. It would be different if it caused problems but that is nothing in my opinion. Not worth the trouble to change that. It not like the fretboard is peeling off.

[Aster1]

More good stuff!! I'll get my trip planned, maybe I have a training that I NEED to go to in KC area for work, then in my off time if not too much homework, I can go hit up some stores there. I know MF will let you come in and play stuff if you give them some heads up too. I guess in the mean time I need to really spend some time with my SG and see what I like/dislike about it as well.

 

Now for some reflection on me that came with this post. Somehow I suspect a trend, maybe I'm right or wrong. It seems like the better player you are the less the need for a certain guitar (outside of a playing preference). If you're a mediocre player (like me ) then you look more at the guitar quality, sound and stuff 'n stuff like that there, to cover what you may have in playing ability. You know like the saying on getting a Fast Sports car like a Corvette. It's to compensate for something else "little" about you. The great players may then pick a better guitar as they can do more with it too I guess, just like a better quality tool for doing woodwork provides for the right hands. I end up having the better guitar to maybe artificially augment the enjoyment factor as I don't get the real "proud" feeling from my playing ability. Not ashamed as I'm better than even a year ago, but you know what I may mean. I can sure "hear" the difference in the guitars for the most part, esp. acoustics & clean sounding electric tones.

 

I know for me I really like good guitars fit & finish, allot. I also know I'm a very mediocre player working to get better. I also know that I may be a better mediocre player in the future with much practice. But the qualifier word is still there, MEDIOCRE. I guess it's fun to play no matter what level you can obtain. Going to movies & dining out aren't going to bring you fortune or anything other than cost you $$. But you do need some things to enjoy in your free time and anything that's entertaining & recharging to you (that's legal & moral) is on the table. I will give both Brands Epi & Gibson a good look over & playing with a blindfold on the brand name to start with. If I like a LP style then that will get me in the right model/brand. If I don't like the LP style, and say to hell with it all, I MAY COME HOME WITH THE GIBSON HUMMINGBIRD!!! I wouldn't want to waste the trip on some dang training you know!!!

 

Aster

[Ed Zeplin]

More good stuff!! I'll get my trip planned, maybe I have a training that I NEED to go to in KC area for work, then in my off time if not too much homework, I can go hit up some stores there. I know MF will let you come in and play stuff if you give them some heads up too. I guess in the mean time I need to really spend some time with my SG and see what I like/dislike about it as well.

 

Now for some reflection on me that came with this post. Somehow I suspect a trend, maybe I'm right or wrong. It seems like the better player you are the less the need for a certain guitar (outside of a playing preference). If you're a mediocre player (like me ) then you look more at the guitar quality, sound and stuff 'n stuff like that there, to cover what you may have in playing ability. You know like the saying on getting a Fast Sports car like a Corvette. It's to compensate for something else "little" about you. The great players may then pick a better guitar as they can do more with it too I guess, just like a better quality tool for doing woodwork provides for the right hands. I end up having the better guitar to maybe artificially augment the enjoyment factor as I don't get the real "proud" feeling from my playing ability. Not ashamed as I'm better than even a year ago, but you know what I may mean. I can sure "hear" the difference in the guitars for the most part, esp. acoustics & clean sounding electric tones.

 

I know for me I really like good guitars fit & finish, allot. I also know I'm a very mediocre player working to get better. I also know that I may be a better mediocre player in the future with much practice. But the qualifier word is still there, MEDIOCRE. I guess it's fun to play no matter what level you can obtain. Going to movies & dining out aren't going to bring you fortune or anything other than cost you $$. But you do need some things to enjoy in your free time and anything that's entertaining & recharging to you (that's legal & moral) is on the table. I will give both Brands Epi & Gibson a good look over & playing with a blindfold on the brand name to start with. If I like a LP style then that will get me in the right model/brand. If I don't like the LP style, and say to hell with it all, I MAY COME HOME WITH THE GIBSON HUMMINGBIRD!!! I wouldn't want to waste the trip on some dang training you know!!!

 

Aster

 

I must, with all due respect, disagree.

 

My heroes are Page, Slash, Perry, Richrath, Betts, Allman, Walsh, Scholz, Etc. They all played Gibson Les Pauls. That is what I always wanted and had to wait until my '40 s until I got one. My playing prowess doesn't matter, it was just a case of better economics for me. I had one guitar my whole life to that point, my Japanese Fender Strat, and played it for 20 years until I got my dream guitar. I paid my dues. I earned it!

 

It is so easy to use cliches to analyze other peoples motives for their decisions in life. No facts there just speculation.

 

If I were to categorize it I could assert that Epi owners compensate by owning hordes of guitars.

 

This Gibson verus Epiphone does grow tiresome.

 

By the way I drive a Honda.

[Gordy01]

I'm a firm believer in getting my hands on a guitar before buying.

When I bought my Epi LP, I played it through the same amp, and right beside other Epi and Gibby models.

The Epi I chose was for a few different reasons.

 

1. The neck on the Epi felt better in my hand. This is a purely subjective thing. Your hand may feel better on a different shape.

 

2. The Ultra 2 is capable of producing a far wider range of sounds.

3. Having a chambered body made the Epi lighter.

4. On the models I tested, fit and finish was pretty much the same.

[UCSF2012]

Big deal. It doesn't affect the playability at all. I wouldn't call that a defect. More of a design quirk. That is not a gap. It would be different if it caused problems but that is nothing in my opinion. Not worth the trouble to change that. It not like the fretboard is peeling off.

 

These are the core issues. People don't know what to look for in a quality guitar. They look into brands, not the instruments themselves. Their opinions matter less because they don't know what they're doing.

 

You can buy an amazing sounding and amazing playing electric guitar for $500. For 2k and above, you're buying workmanship, and I EXPECT good workmanship if I'm paying for it. A quality instrument isn't slabs of wood glued together. It's carefully crafted with attention to details.

[Ed Zeplin]

These are the core issues. People don't know what to look for in a quality guitar. They look into brands, not the instruments themselves. Their opinions matter less because they don't know what they're doing.

 

You can buy an amazing sounding and amazing playing electric guitar for $500. For 2k and above, you're buying workmanship, and I EXPECT good workmanship if I'm paying for it. A quality instrument isn't slabs of wood glued together. It's carefully crafted with attention to details.

 

The guitar in your picture doesn't have binding and looks to be of a faded type of finish since there is no lacquer along the fretboard. My Gibby SG Special has lacquer right up to the fret ends. Let's see the rest of the guitar and maybe your other faulty gibsons

[Aster1]

I must, with all due respect, disagree.

 

My heroes are Page, Slash, Perry, Richrath, Betts, Allman, Walsh, Scholz, Etc. They all played Gibson Les Pauls. That is what I always wanted and had to wait until my '40 s until I got one. My playing prowess doesn't matter, it was just a case of better economics for me. I had one guitar my whole life to that point, my Japanese Fender Strat, and played it for 20 years until I got my dream guitar. I paid my dues. I earned it!

 

It is so easy to use cliches to analyze other peoples motives for their decisions in life. No facts there just speculation.

 

If I were to categorize it I could assert that Epi owners compensate by owning hordes of guitars.

 

This Gibson verus Epiphone does grow tiresome.

 

By the way I drive a Honda.

 

 

Zeplin,

 

I think you mistook my jest, or I mis-explained it. It wasn't to knock anyone except me, but I do think several people, NOT ALL PEOPLE, do follow my lead on how they pick things & why they want them. I was just pointing out what ADDS enjoyment for me. If you were thinking it was a slam I'm sorry it came across that way.

 

BTW, if you've ever read any of my other posts, rest assured I NEVER knock someone for being able to get anything really nice or expensive for any reason. It's their $$ & that's their business for certain. We all deserve what every we will work hard for and achieve/obtain IMHO. I certainly haven't earned ANY of my nice pieces that I collect from playing or I'd be playing a $150 starter guitar (well, I wouldn't be playing it cuz I couldn't fret it with my hands now). Also, didn't mean to wear you out with the Epi vs. Gibson. It's just a simple conversation ya know and I wasn't axing people to bash one or the other. Just major curiosity on my part on others impressions & takes. That's what's fun about a forum is to discuss idea & experiences IMHO.

 

On the Honda, I'm glad you can drive one. Knowing what I know about myself, I NEED THE CORVETTE

 

Aster

[Aster1]

I'm a firm believer in getting my hands on a guitar before buying.

When I bought my Epi LP, I played it through the same amp, and right beside other Epi and Gibby models.

The Epi I chose was for a few different reasons.

 

1. The neck on the Epi felt better in my hand. This is a purely subjective thing. Your hand may feel better on a different shape.

 

2. The Ultra 2 is capable of producing a far wider range of sounds.

3. Having a chambered body made the Epi lighter.

4. On the models I tested, fit and finish was pretty much the same.

 

Gordy,

 

Good suggestions. I will try the necks as I do like my Casino's neck quite a bit. Smaller hands & not really long fingers for me (only a Med size glove size). The lighter can be an attractive feature with my neck/shoulder injury sometimes a guitar weight, even with a 3" strap, can end up painful after a bit.

 

Thanks for the guidance!!

 

Aster

[AlanH]

Oh, there will always be non-believers. Feel the neck in your guitar where the mahogany meets the rosewood. Do you feel anything? You can even see the edges....

 

 

Take sand paper, polish it from the direction of rosewood to mahogany, and that plus goes away. That's all it takes. Then you paint it.

 

Reading your post on page 1 of this thread and the above I think you're getting mixed up with what is meant by neck binding. The fretboard is "bound" by glue to the neck in your picture above but most people who talk about neck binding mean the cream plastic binding which runs along either edge of the fretboard.