Harris Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I posted a couple weeks ago about about a used Epiphone LP junior I picked up for $100.00...bolt on neck, dog ear P-90 in the bridge, one piece wrap around bridge. I got great advice then and I'm hoping to do the same with this issue. It seems to be common on this board to pick up entry level guitars and upgrade them into real tone machines. That wasn't really my intention when I first bought this guitar, but it sounds so freakin' good, I was hoping to play gigs with it. When I first got the guitar, it would not stay in tune....which did not surprise me. I bought a set of used grover rotomatics on ebay and installed them....and it still does not stay in tune. If you give a string a good hard bend,...it's going to go out of the tune. For instance, if you give the G string a good hard bend....the G string goes flat the most. Followed by the two top strings....and then the bottom strings go out a little. Obviously there is some instability somewhere...neck? truss rod? ..or could it be the bridge? I guess the bridge is the most fixable thing....so, in your opinion...what do you think is the most likely culprit? I know their won't be any definitive answers without actually holding the guitar...I'm just looking for a best guess here. Lastly, I put plenty of wraps around the tuning pegs....so it's highly unlikely the strings are slipping at there. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 What gauge strings are you using? There could be binding at the nut grooves, which will continually cause tuning issues due to unresolved string tension at the headstock Initially try graphite lube... If unsuccessful then maybe take to a tech for groove widening and general tweak... Typical strings for a Junior would be 9's or 10's... Good luck...!! V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harris Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 I've got 10's on it. However, the graphite is a good idea....I'll try that when I get home this evening. What gauge strings are you using? There could be binding at the nut grooves, which will continually cause tuning issues due to unresolved string tension at the headstock Initially try graphite lube... If unsuccessful then maybe take to a tech for groove widening and general tweak... Typical strings for a Junior would be 9's or 10's... Good luck...!! V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Yup. 90 percent of the time or more the problem is either bad strings or binding nut. One less likely possibility on this type of instrument would be a loose stopbridge... On bolt-on neck guitars sometimes a looseness there. Still, 90 percent of the time or more the problem is either bad strings or a binding nut - and the two sometimes are almost interrelated. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitmore Willy Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Harris, Sorry to hear that you have a sticky nut! Presuming that your setup is correct and that your tailpiece is set somewhere near intonatable and that the guitar has been intonated: I'll go with the others..... Stick some lube under your G string!! (and the rest) We already know that you have put good tuners on your guitar so that is unlikely the problem. So... Everything is used from products like "NUT SAUCE" to graphite spray and dust from a pencil lead. They Work! I would also check the slot widths and smoothness. Stock nuts are not always known for their accuracy or quality. You can always open the slot up and/or smooth them out with torch tip cleaners. (They are small files you can buy at any welding supply for under $5.) Pick a file just slightly larger than the string....open and smooth the slot. Just make sure you are not going deeper unless that is what you want..... If that doesn't get it, replace the nut with a bone or pre-slotted Tusq. That's what many people do. There are three ways to determine string slot depth: http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/4615540-post22.html AND!!!.... It is a fairly easy project: http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/77220-beater-guitar-part-5/ Let us know what you're thinking, Willy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 It seems to be common on this board to pick up entry level guitars and upgrade them into real tone machines. No, not really. The popular thing is to take well-made mid-price guitars, like set neck Epi's, make a few upgrades and turn them into tone machines. The problem with entry-level guitars is that everything, materials and workmanship, is as cheap as possible and it's just not worth replacing everything on them. In the long run, it's much cheaper to buy a nice used set neck LP or SG than sink a bundle in a 'bargain' beginner guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 You can lube, recut or even replace the nut on Epi Juniors, but the problem won't go away until you change out the el-cheapo sheet metal tuners. Ask me how I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 You can lube, recut or even replace the nut on Epi Juniors, but the problem won't go away until you change out the el-cheapo sheet metal tuners. Ask me how I know. +1. Set neck Epis come with high quality Grover tuners. With an entry-level guitar, by the time you replace the tuners, PU's, pots, toggle, wiring, and hardware you could have bought a used set neck Epi for less, that didn't need those things replaced. A $100 'bargain' guitar that you put several hundred dollars of upgrades into, is still a $100 guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 +1. Set neck Epis come with high quality Grover tuners. With an entry-level guitar, by the time you replace the tuners, PU's, pots, toggle, wiring, and hardware you could have bought a used set neck Epi for less, that didn't need those things replaced. A $100 'bargain' guitar that you put several hundred dollars of upgrades into, is still a $100 guitar. The sunburst Junior in the center of the photo above is a solid mahogany body set-neck '57 reissue that came stock with Grovers and a Gibson P-100. They were made for a few years. When you can find them, they sell for around $400. I did swap out the anemic P100 for a Vintage Vibe, but other than that it needed nothing. The thing that makes the cheap bolt-on Jrs a good mod platform is the necks are generally surprisingly playable and they can be found used for as little as $50. The more recent "Custom Shop" bolt-ons also sport a solid wood body and better wiring and electronics than the older plywood models. But the tuners still suck, and the nut almost always needs to be at least recut, if not replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpiJrLover Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 I have several Jrs and have changed the nuts on all of them to pre-slotted Graphtechs. IMO its the cheap plastic nuts on Epis (and many other guitars) that cause 99% of tuning issues. Even the cheap stock tuners will keep the guitar in tune pretty well in my experience if the nut is changed. The install is easy too, just carefully sand the sides and height a bit to match your old nut, and you're golden. These are the ones I've used on my Juniors: http://www.ebay.com/itm/251241655050?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_1865wt_933 EDITING to add, it is true that these Jrs are budget guitars, but they still play and sound great. Set-necks are overated, I wouldnt sweat your decision to buy a bolt-on neck '$100 guitar'. Change the nut, and possibly tuners and you're good to go. Remember many people change out all the stuff on their set-neck models too, and the nut on those isnt any better than the bolt-on version. I'd put either of my Jrs up against any set-neck Jr for sound and playability, and all the changes i've made on them have been inexpensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 it is true that these Jrs are budget guitars, but they still play and sound great. Set-necks are overated, I wouldnt sweat your decision to buy a bolt-on neck '$100 guitar'. Change the nut, and possibly tuners and you're good to go. Remember many people change out all the stuff on their set-neck models too, and the nut on those isnt any better than the bolt-on version. I'd put either of my Jrs up against any set-neck Jr for sound and playability, and all the changes i've made on them have been inexpensive. I agree. All I'm saying is don't get carried away and replace everything on an Epi, because you can spend enough on that where you could have bought a Gibson (some guys do this). The cheaper the guitar is, the less you should put into it. Putting $500 into a set neck Epi is a bad idea; it's crazy on an entry level one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harris Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 I'm happy to report that the guitar is staying in tune. I did go buy the torch cleaners and worked on the nut (torch cleaners = genius). However, I don't think that was the only issue. I think the truss rod was also loose. I had previously given the truss rod a 1/4 turn, but another 1/4 turn and it tightened up significantly...but....not to the point of stressing anything. So, I've got $100.00 in the guitar, $28.00 in used grover tuners, $4.00 in torch cleaners that I can use again and $4.00 in graphite and $18.00 in a p-90 spacer. The guitar plays and sounds great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Putting $500 into a set neck Epi is a bad idea; it's crazy on an entry level one. You're new here, aren't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordy01 Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Lastly, I put plenty of wraps around the tuning pegs....so it's highly unlikely the strings are slipping at there. Thanks! You do not need anymore than 3 or 4 wraps on the larger strings, and maybe a couple more on the small ones. The idea of wraps is to firstly, stop the string from slipping, and secondly get a larger break angle over the nut. This means that after going through the hole wind the string down until it almost reaches the bottom of the peg. If you're in tune at that point, perfect. The wraps should not be double thickness anywhere on the peg. Too many wraps can cause the string to loosen on the peg when bending notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordy01 Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Bluemans335, on 23 May 2013 - 05:12 AM, said: Putting $500 into a set neck Epi is a bad idea; it's crazy on an entry level one. brianh said: You're new here, aren't you? LOL brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berko Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 You can lube, recut or even replace the nut on Epi Juniors, but the problem won't go away until you change out the el-cheapo sheet metal tuners. Ask me how I know. Hey Brianh, Saw your yellow Jr with the Bigsby. Very pretty! Is that the original bridge? Did you have to modify it to keep it from moving backwards? What model whammy? How did it work out? Thanks in advance for any advice. I just got the P90 Special after buying a Special II with humbuckers a while ago. Both were perfect right out of the box and practically free. Any word on Chinese "Bigsby"s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Hey Brianh, Saw your yellow Jr with the Bigsby. Very pretty! Is that the original bridge? Did you have to modify it to keep it from moving backwards? What model whammy? How did it work out? Thanks in advance for any advice. I just got the P90 Special after buying a Special II with humbuckers a while ago. Both were perfect right out of the box and practically free. Any word on Chinese "Bigsby"s? Berko, the deets on that one can be found here: http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/epiphone-les-pauls/197521-80-plywood-junior-makeover.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KVL Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Harris, Sorry to hear that you have a sticky nut! Stick some lube under your G string!! like "NUT SAUCE" I would also check the slot widths and smoothness. Stock nuts are not always known for their accuracy or quality. Let us know what you're thinking, Willy I'm thinking that I HOPE you're still talking about guitars... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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