Rhythm - Treble Switch

[boblove]

I just bought an Epi Standard Pro and within 2 days had the Rhythm / Treble Switch malfunction. I know, It's covered under warranty but I bought a Gibson Traditional Pro and It did the exact same thing. New, 2 days later Rhythm/Treble Switch problems.

 

Is this common with these guitars?

[Bluemans335]

Toggle switches usually have prongs that make connections. If the prongs are angled slightly off, connections won't be made when they're supposed to be. Fast and easy fix. Remove the back cover plate, take the nut off the toggle, leave the wires connected, and look at it from the side as you flip it up and down. You'll see the problem. Just bend the offending prong(s) slightly.

 

Prongs are subject to fatigue, from the pressure of being left in the bridge or neck position for long periods of time. Prongs can eventually conform and bend. To keep that from happening, I always put my toggles in the middle position when the guitar isn't plugged in.

[BaZie]

I just bought an Epi Standard Pro and within 2 days had the Rhythm / Treble Switch malfunction. I know, It's covered under warranty but I bought a Gibson Traditional Pro and It did the exact same thing. New, 2 days later Rhythm/Treble Switch problems.

 

I have 3 Epi's, among them 2 have 3-way switch, and no problem with them for at least half a year. Only 5-way switch in Nighthawk sometimes behaves strange, but not very often and gnerally speaking it works as it should.

[BaZie]

To keep that from happening, I always put my toggles in the middle position when the guitar isn't plugged in.

 

Me too, but I usually play in the middle position, because in that case the sound seems to be the richest.

[Bluemans335]

Me too, but I usually play in the middle position, because in that case the sound seems to be the richest.

 

In the middle toggle position, the PU's are linked in parallel, which adds treble and reduces output (just as it does when the coils of a humbucker are linked in parallel). In parallel, either PU alone will be louder than when both are on together.

 

Humbuckers can also be linked in series with a push-pull (which is also the way humbucker coils are wired) which boosts output, reduces treble, and adds mids. With humbuckers this can be too dark for some people's tastes, but is a viable option when one PU is in coil cut. BTW, linking PU's in series is part of the 4 push-pull Jimmy Page system (neck tone pot) and can be combined with coil cut (neck volume pot).

 

PU's only need a single lead to be linked in series, so a push-pull pot can link two P-90's in series, which is a very usable tone. I've done this to some P-90 guitars.

 

Another option is to change the lugs a couple wires go to on the volume pots, and that will give you 'independent volume controls'. Epi's and Gibsons are wired for 'dependent volume controls' which means that in the middle toggle position, when one volume control is turned down, it lowers the volume of both PU's. That prevents you from being able to blend each PU's volume and get all those other tones. I rewire my guitars to 'independent volume controls' so I can blend the PU's.

[capmaster]

... Prongs are subject to fatigue, from the pressure of being left in the bridge or neck position for long periods of time. Prongs can eventually conform and bend. To keep that from happening, I always put my toggles in the middle position when the guitar isn't plugged in.

+1

 

I never bent toggle switch prongs in 33 years, and never had to replace one. ALL of my NEW Gibsons and my Epiphone with toggle switches had contact problems, due to evaporations caused by the fresh finish I think. I treated them with contact cleaner (CRC Chemicals Kontakt 60 in my case), and all the problems were gone. However, I had to do this several times, and even open up the backplate and flush the switches through letting drop the cleaner onto a cloth underneath the opened cavity.

 

There never were problems with rotary switches and Fender blade switches in the past.

[boblove]

 

Epi's and Gibsons are wired for 'dependent volume controls' which means that in the middle toggle position, when one volume control is turned down, it lowers the volume of both PU's. That prevents you from being able to blend each PU's volume and get all those other tones. I rewire my guitars to 'independent volume controls' so I can blend the PU's.

 

This seems to have been my issue. I wasn't aware of this type of set up. All my other Gibson guitars were purchased used and either weren't this way originally or had been rewired. I could have sworn that it had independent volume controls when I played it at the store and the two following days... my wife asked me are you sure they don't both have to be turned on..... oh no I replied....but , as usual, she was right.

[capmaster]

This seems to have been my issue. I wasn't aware of this type of set up. All my other Gibson guitars were purchased used and either weren't this way originally or had been rewired. I could have sworn that it had independent volume controls when I played it at the store and the two following days... my wife asked me are you sure they don't both have to be turned on..... oh no I replied....but , as usual, she was right.

On the other hand, if wired completely independent, the volume pots load down the pickups increasingly with decreasing setting. This comes into play when one single pickup is used. It is the reason for me to leave the wiring all as it came stock.

[Bender 4 Life]

This seems to have been my issue. I wasn't aware of this type of set up. All my other Gibson guitars were purchased used and either weren't this way originally or had been rewired. I could have sworn that it had independent volume controls when I played it at the store and the two following days... my wife asked me are you sure they don't both have to be turned on..... oh no I replied....but , as usual, she was right.

 

gotta love "modern" wiring..... <_<

[BaZie]

In the middle toggle position, the PU's are linked in parallel, which adds treble and reduces output (just as it does when the coils of a humbucker are linked in parallel). In parallel, either PU alone will be louder than when both are on together.

 

I do not quite understand why setting PUs, or coils, in parallel would decrease the output when compared to PU, or coil, alone. I do not hear the difference, however, the tone is different, but I wouldn't say weaker.

[capmaster]

I do not quite understand why setting PUs, or coils, in parallel would decrease the output when compared to PU, or coil, alone. I do not hear the difference, however, the tone is different, but I wouldn't say weaker.

On most guitars with toggle switches, the output of the volume pots is connected to the respective switch input. In case of turning one volume pot fully counterclockwise, the other pickup's signal is shorted to ground regardless of its volume pot position in the middle (both pickups selected) position of the switch.

[Bluemans335]

I do not quite understand why setting PUs, or coils, in parallel would decrease the output when compared to PU, or coil, alone. I do not hear the difference, however, the tone is different, but I wouldn't say weaker.

 

PU's and coils can be linked in series or parallel, meaning the current runs to both PU's (or coils) at the same time in parallel. In series it runs to one PU (or coil) first, then the other. Don't know the name of the electrical principle involved, but in series, the PU's (or coils) 'work together' and increase output and mids, while reducing treble. In parallel, the PU's (or coils) 'work against each other' and cancel out a certain amount of output and mids, and add treble. Jimmy Page used to use the middle toggle position on his LP's a lot when he played live, and you can really hear the bright, thin, cleaner sound of that, as opposed to the fuller, more powerful sound of using one PU at a time. You can really hear that on the live album he did with the Black Crowes, and I'm sure he did that so his guitar would stand out from the other guitars in that concert.

 

The drop in output in parallel is impacted by how far apart the two objects are. When a humbucker's coils are in parallel, it really drops the volume, because they're side-by-side. A humbucker that's 8K ohms in series, is 4K in coil cut and 2K in parallel (that's resistence, not output. Output is thought to drop about 30% in parallel). With two PU's, the volume reduction in parallel occurs too, but isn't as extreme as the PU's are separated by several inches. If both neck and bridge PU's have a similar output, the effect of parallel is more obvious than if there is a difference in output between them. At equal PU volumes, there is more cancellation. The difference you hear in the tone when two PU's are in parallel, is partly due to the loss of some of the midrange muscle as the output is lowered.

[deeman]

I'm confused, so I have a stock Gibson Studio LP and lately have been using the middle setting and I've found a good sound by rolling back the volume of the rhythm pup to about 6 or 7. So by rolling back the volume of one pickup am I also decreasing the volume of the other?

[capmaster]

I'm confused, so I have a stock Gibson Studio LP and lately have been using the middle setting and I've found a good sound by rolling back the volume of the rhythm pup to about 6 or 7. So by rolling back the volume of one pickup am I also decreasing the volume of the other?

You will load the other pickup down by tweaking one's volume. From what setting on it becomes audible, depends on the tapering of the volume pots, earlier with audio tapered, later with linear tapered. In both cases, you may hear how you short out the other pickup when slowly turning down one all the way.

[bigneil]

Me too, but I usually play in the middle position, because in that case the sound seems to be the richest.

 

my favourite LP sound is middle; Both tones on 10, and the rhythm pickup volume turned down to about 6, amp set for crunch, and engage a clean boost, you get a beautiful soaring sound for lead.

[bigneil]

Me too, but I usually play in the middle position, because in that case the sound seems to be the richest.

 

I'm confused, so I have a stock Gibson Studio LP and lately have been using the middle setting and I've found a good sound by rolling back the volume of the rhythm pup to about 6 or 7. So by rolling back the volume of one pickup am I also decreasing the volume of the other?

.....nope, not exactly. if you have stock modern wiring then the volumes are dependent; essentally they work separately, until you roll one of the volumes completely off, this grounds the whole circuit and kills all the sound of both pickups.

 

my favourite LP sound is middle; Both tones on 10, and the rhythm pickup volume turned down to about 6, amp set for crunch, and engage a clean boost, you get a beautiful soaring sound for lead.

[Pete B]

I'm confused, so I have a stock Gibson Studio LP and lately have been using the middle setting and I've found a good sound by rolling back the volume of the rhythm pup to about 6 or 7. So by rolling back the volume of one pickup am I also decreasing the volume of the other?

 

You will have to reduce the vol of the neck pickup as it has a load more voltage output than the neck. The strings over the bridge pickup are moving over it at a much reduced velocity therefore a much lower output. In one of my guitars with only one vol and one tone I use the Irongear Blues Engine in the neck and Dirty Torque in the bridge. You can see that the bridge pickup is rated way higher than the neck, but they balance in the middle position (Damn good pickups too).

[deeman]

.....nope, not exactly. if you have stock modern wiring then the volumes are dependent; essentally they work separately, until you roll one of the volumes completely off, this grounds the whole circuit and kills all the sound of both pickups.

 

my favourite LP sound is middle; Both tones on 10, and the rhythm pickup volume turned down to about 6, amp set for crunch, and engage a clean boost, you get a beautiful soaring sound for lead.

 

Looks like we are two men who enjoy a similar tone. I figured that they were dependent like you said because theres nothing like rolling back the rhythm volume until you hit that sweet spot. Its a great feeling.

[RobinTheHood]

The nice thing about these new, non-enclosed, Epiphone toggle switches is that you can completely dissassemble them, clean them and rebend them to the proper position. There is really very little that can malfunction on these new switches. Totally repairable unless the metal tab is broken. Save that or the desire to have a switchcraft or high end switch, there is really no need to replace them if they start acting up.

[Bluemans335]

The nice thing about these new, non-enclosed, Epiphone toggle switches is that you can completely dissassemble them, clean them and rebend them to the proper position. There is really very little that can malfunction on these new switches. Totally repairable unless the metal tab is broken. Save that or the desire to have a switchcraft or high end switch, there is really no need to replace them if they start acting up.

 

+1. Only takes a couple minutes to maintain them, and that'll be years apart.

[RobinTheHood]

Yep! But I must warn that it does take some nimble finger or a couple of needle-nose pliers to maneuver it when its apart.

[Bluemans335]

Yep! But I must warn that it does take some nimble finger or a couple of needle-nose pliers to maneuver it when its apart.

 

 

If your fingers are nimble enough to play guitar, you can certainly adjust the prongs on a toggle switch. A lot of guitar maintenance is very easy and low tech, it's just that players aren't sure what to do. Everyone should own 'How to make your electric guitar play great' by Dan Erlewine. It changed my life. No more trips to expensive guitar techs; I do all my own set ups.

[RobinTheHood]

True that. I was sort of referring to doing it while still wired to the guitar - which can get a little tricky. No sense in unsoldering it when its just a bent tab or dirty contact.