PIO's... Are some people deaf to it?

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Searcy, I just read the article you linked again. I noticed something I read straight over before... "Ceramic capacitors are, in the main, microphonic"....

 

>things that make you go Hmmmm<

[Searcy]

Ah, but I was reasoned in to it. I have seen evidence presented in a clear, concise, scientifically structured way; I have heard it, while being slightly sceptical, although less so than I would have been simply because Pippy, who I know, and who I am (almost) certain isn't stupid, already had his sceptism blown apart and I had to accept that, but I was still a little dubious, that's why I put them in, just to listen for myself and I CAN hear it. I accept that this could be some kind of psychosis but I really don't think it is.

 

I certainly know what you mean about the tolerances in values and would happily put it down to that if I hadn't seen the article I linked a page or so back. That clearly shows a difference in the signal distortions of different cap types (not the frequency response which I utterly accept is unaffected) and I don't mean distortion in the way a lot of guitarists might assume, I mean the nonlinearities and hysteresis noted in the article. here it is again

 

I could.definitely still be reasoned back the other way if someone presented me with any compelling facts or evidence.

 

The problem is that you are linking two unrelated observations. You heard a difference after swapping caps but we don't know for a fact what the true values of those caps were.

 

The website you link too doesn't offer any audio at all. Instead it posts scope images of a difference that was observed after passing "70 volts RMS at 600 Hz across the capacitors". This is hardly relevant in a passive guitar tone control. Try hitting the input of your favorite amp with 70V and see what happens.

 

 

For those who are really into this subject here's a bit of fun to take part in. Lets put all those magic ears to the test and end the debate once and for all. [biggrin] [thumbup]

 

Watch this video and write down what you hear. Then click on the link in the description and tell them what you think the answer is.

 

 

 

I plan to play along. You need to give your findings before the end of the month.

[badbluesplayer]

I don't see anybody changing to ceramic disks. Of course, I'm just another guy on the internet. Like "Allan, two stars, pro, from Kansas City," who helped me fix my hot tub.

 

Like I said before, you guys are missing the point entirely. If you don't know what to look for, don't bother.

[krock]

The problem is that you are linking two unrelated observations. You heard a difference after swapping caps but we don't know for a fact what the true values of those caps were.

 

The website you link too doesn't offer any audio at all. Instead it posts scope images of a difference that was observed after passing "70 volts RMS at 600 Hz across the capacitors". This is hardly relevant in a passive guitar tone control. Try hitting the input of your favorite amp with 70V and see what happens.

 

 

For those who are really into this subject here's a bit of fun to take part in. Lets put all those magic ears to the test and end the debate once and for all. [biggrin] [thumbup]

 

Watch this video and write down what you hear. Then click on the link in the description and tell them what you think the answer is.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=817JHiYV_Po&feature=youtu.be

 

 

I plan to play along. You need to give your findings before the end of the month.

 

Very interesting vid, I did the survey.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

You can't use YouTube for this, the audio compression is huge when you upload vids to YouTube. Just saying.

[badbluesplayer]

Here's the other thing. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that any perceived benefit from changing your caps is entirely a placebo effect.

 

Great!! Placebo's work, right. Especially if they're the established recipe for success. It's just that it's all due to a lack of intellectual integrity that may offend one person, but doesn't bother another.

 

My doctor told me to take Vitamin E for my heart, but they figured out later that Vitamin E didn't work. I didn't tell my doctor he was a dope. He was going by the established protocal. Changing out your caps is an established recipe for success. When you challenge that, you face a higher level of scrutiny than the guys who just follow the consensus.

 

One person doesn't think it's worth tinkering around with something, but other people might. Hey, I have a three thousand dollar guitar and I unnecessarily change caps and stuff like other people change their underwear. Doesn't bother me a bit. So if I change a ten dollar cap, I'm not too emotionally invested in it.

 

Now if somebody tells me my LP is a piece of junk then I'll get pretty worked up.

[Searcy]

You can't use YouTube for this, the audio compression is huge when you upload vids to YouTube. Just saying.

 

 

So you didn't hear a difference? I did. Hmmmmmm

[Guest Farnsbarns]

So you didn't hear a difference? I did. Hmmmmmm

 

No difference what so ever....

 

But then, that'll be because I haven't listened to it. Not only is it on YouTube, I use a phone for 99% of my web surfing and only have a combination of internet and decent speakers in my studio. I will listen to it later on though

[Searcy]

Here's the other thing. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that any perceived benefit from changing your caps is entirely a placebo effect.

 

Great!! Placebo's work, right. Especially if they're the established recipe for success. It's just that it's all due to a lack of intellectual integrity that may offend one person, but doesn't bother another.

 

My doctor told me to take Vitamin E for my heart, but they figured out later that Vitamin E didn't work. I didn't tell my doctor he was a dope. He was going by the established protocal. Changing out your caps is an established recipe for success. When you challenge that, you face a higher level of scrutiny than the guys who just follow the consensus.

 

One person doesn't think it's worth tinkering around with something, but other people might. Hey, I have a three thousand dollar guitar and I unnecessarily change caps and stuff like other people change their underwear. Doesn't bother me a bit. So if I change a ten dollar cap, I'm not too emotionally invested in it.

 

Now if somebody tells me my LP is a piece of junk then I'll get pretty worked up.

 

I'm not claiming that it's a placebo effect or that those who swap caps are dopes. Find a guitar with a .22 ceramic tone caps in it and replace it with a .015 ceramic cap. I bet you'll hear a big difference. Replace your 25' cord with a 3' cord. You'll hear and very similar difference.

 

Capacitance matters.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Searcy, did you notice what I posted about ceramic caps being microphonic? Surely that can't be good when they at rigidly soldered into 9lbs of resonant mahogany. Any thoughts?

 

Just BTW. This is what is good about this forum. We can all disagree without feeling the need to hurl abuse about. Have you seen any discussions on this subject anywhere else that were this good natured?

[Searcy]

Searcy, did you notice what I posted about ceramic caps being microphonic? Surely that can't be good when they at rigidly soldered into 9lbs of resonant mahogany. Any thoughts?

 

 

I haven't reread that whole writeup in a few years. Let me revisit it.

 

 

 

Just BTW. This is what is good about this forum. We can all disagree without feeling the need to hurl abuse about. Have you seen any discussions on this subject anywhere else that were this good natured?

 

Are you nuts? I love you guys. Ultimately neither of us is proving anything. We're just spouting off. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

 

 

 

[krock]

Just BTW. This is what is good about this forum. We can all disagree without feeling the need to hurl abuse about. Have you seen any discussions on this subject anywhere else that were this good natured?

 

TGP is where you go if you want to have abuse hurled at you about any subject

[capmaster]

But you can't hear the difference between a guitar with ceramic magnets and one with alnico magnets. The only difference you might be able to hear are the differences in magnetic power and density of magnetic field. The magnetic material makes no difference on the sound. Just like with capacitors.

...

This is a bit like comparing apples and oranges (not Orange Drops, by the way ). AlNiCo magnets are electrically conductive thus causing eddy currents, ceramic magnets are electrical isolators causing none. Swapping an AlNiCo with a ceramic magnet will reduce losses, thus increase inductance and cause a higher quality factor of the coil/capacitance resonance, and vice versa. These differences also depend on the entire pickup design and are quite large when comparing pickups with bar magnets.

 

In fact, building a ceramic-loaded pickup sounding the same like another one with an AlNiCo magnet is practically impossible.

 

When comparing different AlNiCo magnets, the differences are all in string pull and sensitivity, like with BB1/BB2 (AlNiCo 2) and BB Pro neck/bridge (AlNiCo 5). In case you choose a larger space between strings and pickup for the latter, they provide a tone with less even-order harmonics which are bound to result in any magnetic pickup application. This, however, will cause AlNiCo 2 sounding differently than AlNiCo 5 in any real applications with pickups of same make in any other respect, too, although their electrical properties are quite the same if neglecting the strings which simply doesn't apply in real life.

 

Compared to magnets and coils and their effects on tone, all capacitors of the same value do exactly the same to it.

[Sgt.]

I laughed out loud at that! If it makes you feel any better my father adds material to the inside of sax and clarinet mouthpieces and then makes minute adjustment with a dremmel type tool. Swears he hears the difference.

 

Oh, and by the way, I've never even considered the difference, or lack thereof, of different pup magnets. I was just playing silly buggers.

 

 

That'd be neat ... a match comparison of a same type pickup, one with alnico, one with ceramic. you would have to see something scientific to validate the test.

Youtube: BKP Tutorial: Ceramic vs Alnico V magnet in a bridge humbucker.

[Bender 4 Life]

OK my personal take on this is this...

I installed caps for myself and other people lately, Ceramic and Orange Drops I can hear a little difference between them but not so much.

I just started doing PIOs and I hear a major difference in these a milkier or muddier sound I believe its due to the oil holding more of a charge.

Because thats what capacitors basically do they store a charge in them, Thats just my theory though.

I noticed on PIO a .022 in the neck of a Les Paul is to muddy as a .022 Orange Drop is perfect.

I had to drop down to a .015 in PIO to get rid of mud.

 

odd you should mention the pio bridge cap/ od neck cap........this is the same pairing I run in my 2 best LPs, strictly because I like the combo/balance better.