12-string tuning

[powerpopper]

Looks like I have settled on the 12-string that will be mine for the foreseeable future, at least until my next ship comes in and/or I can find a vintage Gibson.

 

I have a DVD by Roger McGuinn where he recommends tuning 12-strings down a half step (or is it a whole step?) and then use a capo so as to lessen the tension on the guitar. When I first saw this, I thought Roger was being a bit of a nervous Nellie, but now a couple of friends have suggested this too--but they don't own 12-strings.

 

What do you guys/gals think? Is this necessary or just recommended? For what it's worth, I don't think it sounds quite as good with the capo, but maybe I need to get a proper 12-string capo?

[insguy]

I had a 12'er about 30 years ago during my high school and college days. It was a Harmony Regal, and not high quality, but it played and sounded good at the time. I always tuned to the standard tuning, with no capo, and had no issues with playability. When I traded it in 1981 for the Guild D40 I still have today, it was like new and had no damage related to string tension. In fact, the dealer I traded it to commented that the bridge was surprisingly flat - (according to him) many bridges on 12-strings pull up over time due to the string tension, creating a bulge in the top of the lower bout.

[ksdaddy]

'69 B45-12 here. I have it tuned to concert pitch. I've heard the half/whole step advice too. I think it depends on the guitar. Some can take the stress, some can't. I've had mine for 5 years I guess... no ill effects. If it implodes tomorrow, screw it, they make new ones every day.

[Todd Wilson]

Don't own a 12 stringer yet, but if it's well made, such as the Guild it's not a worry. If it's cheap, it may cause problems over time. However, I would recommend tuning down because to me 12 strings simply sound better tuned down a half step.

 

It creates even more of the drone associated with the 12 string.

[Rambler]

This goes back to the old days of heavy Black Diamond strings. Blues cats like McTell, BBQ Bob and Leadbelly tuned down, sometimes as low as C on the 6th. Its not a bad idea. 12's exert a tremendous amount of pressure. Slacking the strings eases it back a notch. And yields a meaty tone. Paul Geremia and Ernie Hawkins still slack their 12s. I'd say they get a tone:

 

Paul. Fraulini Sella repro.

Ernie. Guild f112

 

With modern 14 fret 12s, its possible to get away with std tuning using light strings, but one will get a far more airy tone:

[jefleppard]

If it implodes tomorrow' date=' screw it, they make new ones every day.[/quote']

 

this is exactly the way i have lived my life.

[powerpopper]

 

this is exactly the way i have lived my life.

 

Funny that' date=' me too...in every area except guitars...[img']http://forum.gibson.com/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img]/

[Johnt]

2004 SWD 12.

 

Strung with 10s at concert pitch.

 

All my other 12s over the years strung similarly.

 

The 10s give the drone which Todd talks of, did have 9s on it once but they are hard to get.

 

The capo is a tool of the divvil as far as 12s strings are concerned (IMVHO) have never yet found one which did the job well enough.

 

Oh ........and I have tried so many!

[ksdaddy]

In 1994 I rebuilt a junk Suzuki 12 string against any common sense. The fingerboard was plywood (which I promptly chiselled off) and I had to slot a blank as it was a 26" scale. I made a homemade bridge doctor for it, which I'm sure affected the tone. In 2008 I would be more likely to replace the bridge plate instead, but we all evolve, right? On the best of days the guitar was not strong enough for 12 strings, let alone at concert pitch. I can't recall exactly how far I tuned it down but I matched it to some Leadbelly I had on tape.

 

Evil, evil, dark sound that was. I captured Huddie's tone! I claim the scale length had a lot to do with it (it always does!). But the guitar was a one trick pony for sure. A pleasant diversion from the norm but never a replacement for a good strong concert pitch 12 string.

[Johnt]

In 1994 I rebuilt a junk Suzuki 12 string against any common sense. The fingerboard was plywood (which I promptly chiselled off) and I had to slot a blank as it was a 26" scale. I made a homemade bridge doctor for it' date=' which I'm sure affected the tone. In 2008 I would be more likely to replace the bridge plate instead, but we all evolve, right? On the best of days the guitar was not strong enough for 12 strings, let alone at concert pitch. I can't recall exactly how far I tuned it down but I matched it to some Leadbelly I had on tape.

 

Evil, evil, dark sound that was. I captured Huddie's tone! I claim the scale length had a lot to do with it (it always does!). But the guitar was a one trick pony for sure. A pleasant diversion from the norm but never a replacement for a good strong concert pitch 12 string.[/quote']

 

We were talking about the Kiso Suzuki Hummingbird 12s a little while ago, as I recall Jinder was coveting one. Like the late lamented ( and now resurrected) Eko 12 strings they had limitations to say the least.

 

I think it was the laminated tops made from papier mache which did for em!

 

All advertising and no product but fun when they lasted ( that is until you hit the openingh chords for Lola and the bridge hit you in the mouth!)

 

A good 12 string is built to safely take 12 strings at concert pitch, they don't have to cost the earth, Seagull for example make good guitars and depending on the table they can be almost great.

 

BTW KSD

 

Good to see Buddy is trucking on did he get his Christmas dinner?

 

Br

[ksdaddy]

Buddy eats better than most humans. Spoiled rotten! Textbook Golden Retriever, a big baby.

 

And the glucosamine works really well. He has NO problem hopping up on the bed and sleeping between my wife and me.

[Rambler]

"Strung with 10s at concert pitch"

 

Yikes! To each their own, but I cant imagine there is enough pull there to properly drive the top and get a Tone. I do know of one blues pro who strings his reso with lights (also unheard of), which is also unheard of--but he always plays it through an amp.....

[Johnt]

"Strung with 10s at concert pitch"

 

Yikes! To each their own' date=' but I cant imagine there is enough pull there to properly drive the top and get a Tone. I do know of one blues pro who strings his reso with lights (also unheard of), which is also unheard of--but he always plays it through an amp..... [/quote']

 

As you say " each to his own"

 

Considering the effect on my J45 of taking everyones advice on suitability of strings I will keep my own counsel.

 

Happy New Year

[Rambler]

"Considering the effect on my J45 of taking everyones advice on suitability of strings... "

 

=?

[powerpopper]

A good 12 string is built to safely take 12 strings at concert pitch' date=' they don't have to cost the earth, Seagull for example make good guitars and depending on the table they can be almost great.

[/quote']

 

As it happens, the guitar in question is a Seagull, purchased at a heavy discount. I happen to like the LR Baggs electronics too:

 

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Seagull-Artist-Series-Studio-Dreadnought-iBeam-AcousticElectric-Guitar-with-Deluxe-Case?sku=516965

 

While I was deciding whether to keep her, I visited the vintage room at Guitar Center Hollywood where they had 2 different 70's Guilds (both F212's I believe) along with some Martin 12 from the 70's. Out of that particular bunch, the Seagull sounded better than one of the Guilds and nearly as good as the other. The Martin was the best sounding...at more than twice the price! So I decided (for once) to make my wife happy and do the "sensible" thing by keeping the more than serviceable, less expensive guitar that happens not to have Guild, Martin or Gibson displayed on the headstock...

 

my wife applauding--->>:)

[drathbun]

10's are pretty standard for acoustic 12 strings. I've been using Elixir Nano 10's on my 12 string for years.

 

The tension of Elixir 10's on a 25.5" scale 12 string is 258.03lbs.

 

A set of Martin SP 12's have a tension of 245.7lbs and they don't even sell a higher gauge set.

 

You can get higher gauges from Elixir (12's and 13's) but I would use those if I was tuning down a 1/2 step (12's) or a full step (13's).

 

Modern 12 strings are made to pretty sturdy but I wouldn't want high tension on that neck for years. That would just increase the chance of the need for an early neck reset.

 

 

Here is a handy string tension calculator.

[Johnt]

10's are pretty standard for acoustic 12 strings. I've been using Elixir Nano 10's on my 12 string for years.

 

The tension of Elixir 10's on a 25.5" scale 12 string is 258.03lbs.

 

A set of Martin SP 12's have a tension of 245.7lbs and they don't even sell a higher gauge set.

 

You can get higher gauges from Elixir (12's and 13's) but I would use those if I was tuning down a 1/2 step (12's) or a full step (13's).

 

Modern 12 strings are made to pretty sturdy but I wouldn't want high tension on that neck for years. That would just increase the chance of the need for an early neck reset.

 

 

Here is a handy string tension calculator.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Drathbun I am glad to know that I am not alone!

 

Having used 010s on around 20 12 strings over the last thitry years they have always suited me.

 

Mind you I don't do what you guys do and play in front of people a lot.

[Johnt]

 

As it happens' date=' the guitar in question is a Seagull, purchased at a heavy discount. I happen to like the LR Baggs electronics too:

 

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Seagull-Artist-Series-Studio-Dreadnought-iBeam-AcousticElectric-Guitar-with-Deluxe-Case?sku=516965

 

While I was deciding whether to keep her, I visited the vintage room at Guitar Center Hollywood where they had 2 different 70's Guilds (both F212's I believe) along with some Martin 12 from the 70's. Out of that particular bunch, the Seagull sounded better than one of the Guilds and nearly as good as the other. The Martin was the best sounding...at more than twice the price! So I decided (for once) to make my wife happy and do the "sensible" thing by keeping the more than serviceable, less expensive guitar that happens not to have Guild, Martin or Gibson displayed on the headstock...

 

my wife applauding--->> [/quote']

 

One of my greatest faux pas was to sell a Seagull 12 in the 80s/

 

Cedar topped, sweet soundin , verstatile guitar at silly money (that is excellent value for money) but then I Sooooo wanted that Godin Acousticaster 12!! And then spent six months trying to balance the guitar on a strap, so neck heavy.

 

Seagull are a great make and personally and IMVHO, I'd vote every time for them as a lesser priced 12 string.

 

In that area again IMVHO, Guild rule, the SWD is close 2nd,then Taylor then (perish the thought) an Ovation Glen Campbell I once owned and have been trying to track ever since

[powerpopper]

10's are pretty standard for acoustic 12 strings. I've been using Elixir Nano 10's on my 12 string for years.

 

The tension of Elixir 10's on a 25.5" scale 12 string is 258.03lbs.

 

A set of Martin SP 12's have a tension of 245.7lbs and they don't even sell a higher gauge set.

 

You can get higher gauges from Elixir (12's and 13's) but I would use those if I was tuning down a 1/2 step (12's) or a full step (13's).

 

Modern 12 strings are made to pretty sturdy but I wouldn't want high tension on that neck for years. That would just increase the chance of the need for an early neck reset.

 

 

Here is a handy string tension calculator.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for this, it is very interesting indeed. For what it's worth, I restrung my Seagull with 10's and am happy with it at concert pitch, less so tuned down with capo.

 

Am I reading something wrong in your post though? The Elixir 10's have tension of 258.03 lbs, but the Martin 12's have 245.7 lbs--less tension?

[powerpopper]

I'm going with 10's at concert pitch and let the chips fall where they may...

 

Happy new year, fellas!

[drathbun]

 

Thanks for this' date=' it is very interesting indeed. For what it's worth, I restrung my Seagull with 10's and am happy with it at concert pitch, less so tuned down with capo.

 

Am I reading something wrong in your post though? The Elixir 10's have tension of 258.03 lbs, but the Martin 12's have 245.7 lbs--less tension?[/quote']

 

Sorry I used confusion-speak, I meant to say the Martin SP 12 string set (10's) are 245.7lbs as per the info on their website. I calculated the Elixir 12 string set (10's) at 258.03lbs based on the calculator and that is just approximate because some of the Elixir sizes aren't on the calculator and I had to use the next closest. It would be very close though since only two strings were off by .001".

[Guest]

Looks like I have settled on the 12-string that will be mine for the foreseeable future' date=' at least until my next ship comes in and/or I can find a vintage Gibson.

 

I have a DVD by Roger McGuinn where he recommends tuning 12-strings down a half step (or is it a whole step?) and then use a capo so as to lessen the tension on the guitar. When I first saw this, I thought Roger was being a bit of a nervous Nellie, but now a couple of friends have suggested this too--but they don't own 12-strings.

 

What do you guys/gals think? Is this necessary or just recommended? For what it's worth, I don't think it sounds quite as good with the capo, but maybe I need to get a proper 12-string capo?[/quote']

 

I used to have a Roger McGuinn Rickenbacker, and I never understood why Roger himself recommended this too. But hey! -- he is a longtime player of the mighty 12, so I would defer to his knowledge somewhat too.

 

The Rick 12 has a dual truss rod, and is built to a 24.75" scale yet, so one would have thought that would go a fair ways to dealing with the added tension of the extra course of strings. I've always left mine (electrics and acoustics) in standard concert pitch eadgbe, and have never had a problem. (Knock on maple!)

 

Fred

[drathbun]

 

I used to have a Roger McGuinn Rickenbacker' date=' and I never understood why Roger himself recommended this too. But hey! -- he is a longtime player of the mighty 12, so I would defer to his knowledge somewhat too.

 

The Rick 12 has a dual truss rod, and is built to a 24.75" scale yet, so one would have thought that would go a fair ways to dealing with the added tension of the extra course of strings. I've always left mine (electrics and acoustics) in standard concert pitch eadgbe, and have never had a problem. (Knock on maple!)

 

Fred[/quote']

 

I have the McGuinn DVD as well, and a Rickenbacker 360/12. John Hall the CEO of Rickenbacker says the guitar is built for standard tuning with Rickenbacker strings (10-13-20-26-34-42

10-13-10-13-20-26)

 

The dual truss rod sounds like it is strong than a single, but the truss rods are much lighter. I think the idea behind the dual truss rods is to have greater control over both sides of the fretboard/neck. I don't see the need to keep either of my 12 strings in anything but standard tuning. As to Roger's advice, I take it with a grain of salt. I use his method for changing strings on the Ric 12 (makes lots of sense) but he also suggests using a the screwdriver on his Swiss Army knife and using a small nut driver with a pair of vise grips... umm... I don't think so.

[Rambler]

Checked dealer specs at guild and martin. (To my chargrin), they do indeed recommend .10s for their 12s in std tuning. So there you are. Tone-wise, if that doesnt give the punch and definition one needs, then consider going up a guage or 2 and tuning down. Otherwise, enjoy.

 

Btw, anyone have Kottke's current preferences re strings/tuning?

[albertjohn]

I'll add my 2 penn'th. I've always used 10's in standard tuning - currently Exilirs so I don't have to change them as often.

 

Agree with JT about capos. I have a 12 string Kyser capo which works fine but why have a tusk/bone etc nut and use capo to bring it back to standard tuning?