Surreal For Real Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 ^^^^ Older guys will always scare off the younger guys. That goes beyond music...:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I don't see arrogance in it. I'm not talking really about 'likes' as though I am saying the 'tone' I like is better than your 'tone'. I've got nothing against love songs. I think this generation is a fan of different things, the numbers and sales say so. If today's John Doe said his side, then would he be arrogant? You yourself said modern trends are about money. That would offend my 16 year old neighbor who says Katy Perry is more talented than the Beatles. Well, the "arrogance" lies in the assumption, within that "people do not appreciate it, any longer" part of your statement. To me, that's just your opinion! Which you're entitled to. It's no big deal, we all have that to certain degrees. As to Katy Perry being more talented than The Beatles? But, again...that's her personal opinion, based on what she likes/loves. Even My love of "The Beatles," at first (age 14) wasn't intellectual, it was visceral, from their music, and personas. And, since Katy Perry, is (somewhat akin to) this generations Beatles, or Michael Jackson, I get it. It's not my kind of music, but...So what? Most "Pop" these days, has nothing to say to me. Doesn't mean it doesn't work, for other people. And, who am I, or you, to dictate otherwise? That's all. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal For Real Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 Well, the "arrogance" lies in the assumption, within that "people do not appreciate it, any longer" part of your statement. To me, that's just your opinion! Which you're entitled to. It's no big deal, we all have that to certain degrees. As to Katy Perry being more talented than The Beatles? But, again...that's her personal opinion, based on what she likes/loves. Even My love of "The Beatles," at first (age 14) wasn't intellectual, it was visceral, from their music, and personas. And, since Katy Perry, is (somewhat akin to) this generations Beatles, or Michael Jackson, I get it. It's not my kind of music, but...So what? Most "Pop" these days, has nothing to say to me. Doesn't mean it doesn't work, for other people. And, who am I, or you, to dictate otherwise? That's all. CB CB, I am basing the 'appreciation' aspect on mainstream sales and my experiences with musicians, etc., over the last 30 years. I think the average fan knows less about music than those of generations ago. Just as the average driver today knows less about what is under the hood of the car they are driving (there are studies that show this). When my grandmother took music in elementary school, they literally learned and wrote music. They, as a generation, were taught harmonies, melodies, etc., and most of them could sit at a piano and play the basics. Today, my 11 year old (who is musically proficient)is bored silly in music because the curriculum is not challenging whatsoever. I still have things from my music class in 3rd grade and it's beyond what my 7th grader is learning. I brought this to my son's school, the instructor looked at it and said "They MAY get to this in High School". My contention is that the study of music has been replaced by technological age, in the mainstream that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Interesting SFR. I was not exposed to music education in public elementary school, but I was part of the youth choir at church. We were taught the staff and note names values for pitch and duration, and rhythms. I believe that any kind of learning at a young age tends to come easier and stick with you. I would imagine that if I had stuck with singing, those lessons would have been a good basis for ear training and having an intrinsic feel for note pitch and intervals. Being angelic was not the image I wanted at that age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal For Real Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 Interesting SFR. I was not exposed to music education in public elementary school, but I was part of the youth choir at church. We were taught the staff and note names values for pitch and duration, and rhythms. I believe that any kind of learning at a young age tends to come easier and stick with you. I would imagine that if I had stuck with singing, those lessons would have been a good basis for ear training and having an intrinsic feel for note pitch and intervals. Being angelic was not the image I wanted at that age. I, as you, ran to the hills when it came to choir...but at least we were exposed to it. Just like science, etc., you get exposed and if you follow it, great. The underexposure of music leads to the uneducated listener. Just as the underexposure of an English/Reading/Writing class leads to a more illiterate person. My theory is that we have a very uneducated mainstream and the media can get away with what they put out because not too many people recognize what they are hearing. When rock first hit the scene it was not liked by the elders because of what it represented. I understand that. It was the image and the message the older people didn't like, as much as the tone of distortion. But it certainly was not the ability of the musicians. They were well-schooled. Today, we still deal with the message that rappers, etc., put out but the older generation also says "It isn't music, it's a beat, there's nothing going on there and every song is the same". It's not healthy for music when the mass appeal contains little music. The kids are slowly losing their 'ears'. I blame both the media and the school system that does not teach music. The system is failing on every other level, as well. Music is taking the same hit in the US as the sciences and math are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 CB, I am basing the 'appreciation' aspect on mainstream sales and my experiences with musicians, etc., over the last 30 years. I think the average fan knows less about music than those of generations ago. Just as the average driver today knows less about what is under the hood of the car they are driving (there are studies that show this). When my grandmother took music in elementary school, they literally learned and wrote music. They, as a generation, were taught harmonies, melodies, etc., and most of them could sit at a piano and play the basics. Today, my 11 year old (who is musically proficient)is bored silly in music because the curriculum is not challenging whatsoever. I still have things from my music class in 3rd grade and it's beyond what my 7th grader is learning. I brought this to my son's school, the instructor looked at it and said "They MAY get to this in High School". My contention is that the study of music has been replaced by technological age, in the mainstream that is. Well, I agree, wholeheartedly, when it comes to lack of "education," these days. Public Schools, are (all too often) Abysmal! An 8th Grade education, at the turn of the 19 Century (into the 20th), was more like a practical (as opposed to specialized) college education, now. Music, or otherwise. Some of the Private Schools, it seems, do a much better job. But, of course, as in everything, there are exceptions. Music, and the Arts (in general) are not valued, like they were in our parents, grandparents, and great grandparents generations. They are, often, the least funded, and usually the first programs cut, when budget considerations become critical. But, back to "end of the guitar era." I think, personally, it's just evolved, as most things do. And, I don't see that as a negative process, at all. There are still good "guitar bands," as well as the guitar being just one part of a different stuctured ensemble, instrumentally. None of us have a "crystal ball," to see where music may go. But, it should be interesting, nonetheless. Cheers, CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal For Real Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 Well, I agree, wholeheartedly, when it comes to lack of "education," these days. Public Schools, are (all too often) Abysmal! An 8th Grade education, at the turn of the 19 Century (into the 20th), was more like a practical (as opposed to specialized) college education, now. Music, or otherwise. Some of the Private Schools, it seems, do a much better job. But, of course, as in everything, there are exceptions. Music, and the Arts (in general) are not valued, like they were in our parents, grandparents, and great grandparents generations. They are, often, the least funded, and usually the first programs cut, when budget considerations become critical. CB I just went through the budget cuts at our district and music was the first to get cut. We eliminated a teacher and the music options were slimmed. So if the trend continues music will dang near be gone and the kids will know next to nothing about it. I have found that the less someone knows about music, the more music sounds like chaos to them. To an educated ear, Joe Pass is playing some great stuff. To an uneducated ear, Joe Pass is 'noodling around aimlessly on a guitar' (as one of my students used to say). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Well, my observations, are from a bit different perspective, I guess. I don't, read music, and play strictly by "ear." You seem to be an educator, so have a more enlightened appreciation, of our current, and recent past, musical predicament(s). But, I've seen all you describe and more, every year! I don't know, about Europe, or the UK, but in America, "public education" in general, has become a critical concern! And, if it hasn't, it should be!! IMHO, as always. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal For Real Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 Well, my observations, are from a bit different perspective, I guess. I don't, read music, and play strictly by "ear." You seem to be an educator, so have a more enlightened appreciation, of our current, and recent past, musical predicament(s). But, I've seen all you describe and more, every year! I don't know, about Europe, or the UK, but in America, "education" in general, has become a critical concern! And, if it hasn't, it should be!! IMHO, as always. CB The 'Ear' carries more weight, IMO. Innately you have it, just as there are young kids who have it. That's why they follow music, it all starts with the ear. Musical symbols are for communication purposes. I don't know the exact numbers but I know the number of students I teach has dropped every year, and I give FREE lessons and loan guitars to kids who do not have one. If that isn't an incentive, I don't know what is. Also, the kids I see now know less and less. I am talking ages 9-ish to late teens. It's gotten to the point that our high school has asked me to volunteer to cover for the music teacher they let go. Think about that. Would they ever ask someone to volunteer for Biology because they cut that class down? I hope not...but one day they may...:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I think overall education and culture have changed. As an old guy, I'm not terribly happy about it, but then again, I'm not sure that older generations were necessarily pleased with how I went through my own education. Yet remember that "we" still had a major and important "Eighth Grade Graduation" ceremony. It was at the time sufficient to be considered a solid basic education. One knew reading, writing, arithmetic, more history than today's average college grad, ditto more government. Also sufficient literature so grads of eighth grade grasped the concept of metaphor and allegory. Music was a given, btw, as was a bit of basic painting and drawing, even attempts at sculpture. I think there are dozens of reasons why today's high school, even college students, know less, in ways, than the average eighth grade grad of the late 1800s through the 1950s. Then again, I'm referencing "european" education in rural areas. Even today eighth grade functionally is maximum for some religious colonies and functionally English is their second language. Often lowered expectations, teaching to testing, semi-literate teachers regardless that they may be math wizards and parental lack of concern all contribute. So also does the culture among children and teens that reflect too much what they see and hear at home and among peers. I suggested doing a classical background class for high school juniors and seniors for free - and a somewhat cynical teacher suggested it'd not fly as long as the boys could see naked ladies on their smartphones and the girls could text about the boys. Last week I ran into a high school senior who had her first exposure to Sophocles and his play "Antigone." In roughly three minutes she went from, "I just don't get it" to "Okay, that makes a lotta sense." And I hadn't read Antigone since I was myself in high school. So... it ain't the kids. It's the culture and expectations of home, family, community and peer groups. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal For Real Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share Posted January 11, 2014 Well said, Milod, as always. It's a grass roots effort to get out of the mess...no one else is going to save the day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Surreal... Yes, and I also figure "no excuses." I taught diction and grammar to some urban folks of both poor black and poor white backgrounds in the south. They wanted to be the best possible instructors of martial arts, and recognized that sounding like a professional brings better response from their constituency. One hard-working young black guy who had been trying to get more active in his church was more impressed that he was increasingly asked to read various Bible verses and lead groups there. The old sales pitch of "find out what motivates them, and show them how your product meets expectations" is true. I'm just not sure that we have the percentage of younger people who perceive reasons to be motivated, especially in schools from some subcultures. Where I live now, one very successful Mexican immigrant family got all their kids into college, then Mom saw she needed a U.S. high school credential to get more involved in nursing-type work. So with ESL as a priority, she went back to school and passed her GED, including English composition. She's also a good example to others in similar situations. Our small town girls' volleyball team this year again had its entire team designated "Academic All State." Some 35 games in two months, plus practices; girls studying on the bus and some holding after-school jobs as well; all had 3.25 or above GPA. The seniors topped a 3.95 gpa. Oh - and the school district has roughly 50 percent receiving free or reduced price meals due to economic status. It's a matter of motivation. Ditto guitar playing. It's tough to get beyond basic chords or notes. Do teachers and peers necessarily encourage kids with average interest to exploit their degree of talent, or do they see or do just "a curriculum." Same game as in "school." Education derives from the Latin "To lead out from." Not, "To cram into." I think sometimes we forget that. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacealf Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 It's not gone just subdued! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RUB-cPRuoA There are others also. Oh, and fingernail polish nowadays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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