Surreal For Real Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 Opinions are like a$$h0les,, everyone has one. That happens to be yours. It's not a fact, it's your opinion. Feel free to offer a modern name of a guitarist who has reach the mainstream level of Jim Hendrix or EVH. You can't, and that's not opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Actually there is something else to add to this.. The one thing I know about digital music and people who sample and use all that stuff... Its that what happens to them through the process of learning is that they strive for "pure" samples of music... What you will find is that a lot of these people will eventually realise that using real instruments is the best way to get great samples, that leads them to start playing something and leads to new styles for them.. Ive seen this happen to a few people. Kinda like when you start playing guitar.. A lot of us younger ish blokes (like 30 something) will have started listening to GnR, Metallica and ACDC, but when you really get into rock you start going back and that leads you to the blues and that whole trip can totally change the way you view rock. I think we are just at the verge of newer stuff... Do you remember that kid Sam Coulson.. The first time I heard him I knew he had something special.. this guy He then went on and got a gig playing with Asia, that hes still doing.. Hes still so young.. Im hoping that when he does his stint with Asia and gets some great experience he will come back with his own stuff after.. And here he is with Asia :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal For Real Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 I think this is part of the issue with your perspective, and frankly it just may be part of the problem. If you don't listen and support current bands and look for new players how are they going to make it or make it big? Just to give you some perspective, I am almost 45, I hated the Disco years, was into the Beatles then around 1980 I got into Hard Rock then the NWOBHM then Thrash Metal I also liked some select Glam Bands songs (that was my Pop)then Gn'R and Skid Row and liked Grunge like everybody else, after that was over I got into Blues and found a lot of the 70's stuff that I didn't already know. Nowadays there are some great bands, they are not mainstream but they are great, like, really great. Well, you said 'rock' and there is plenty I support that is guitar-based outside of rock. I just don't think there are any rock bands that compare to the older rock bands. Obviously because rock topped out and became passe. I don't think any southern rock band, for example, around nowadays can touch Lynyrd Skynyrd or reach their popularity, and that goes for all of the rock genre, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I don't think any southern rock band, for example, around nowadays can touch Lynyrd Skynyrd or reach their popularity, and that goes for all of the rock genre, IMO. I do agree with you, but I agree with you from our perspective. In 1975, nobody could touch Skynyrd, I agree completely. Today, for you and I, nobody can touch Skynyrd, that is true. For you and I. We are not the targeted consumer for whom popular music is made, and we are not in that world anymore, no matter how we dress, or talk, or cut our hair, or act. We are 40 years past that, and no matter what you think now, Skynyrd was pre-packaged slicked up pop music meant to be sold via FM radio, just like pop music today. There is not an objective comparison because if my kids kids are around and I have Skynyrd on they are not the least bit interested, just like when you and I were listening to NuthinFancy we weren't interested in ShaNaNa or Frankie Valli or anything else our parents listened to. I think you are saying something that is deeply valid, but only personally valid, for you. To be valid for everyone else it requires an objective comparison that just isn't possible. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krock Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Actually there is something else to add to this.. The one thing I know about digital music and people who sample and use all that stuff... Its that what happens to them through the process of learning is that they strive for "pure" samples of music... What you will find is that a lot of these people will eventually realise that using real instruments is the best way to get great samples, that leads them to start playing something and leads to new styles for them.. Ive seen this happen to a few people. Kinda like when you start playing guitar.. A lot of us younger ish blokes (like 30 something) will have started listening to GnR, Metallica and ACDC, but when you really get into rock you start going back and that leads you to the blues and that whole trip can totally change the way you view rock. I think we are just at the verge of newer stuff... Do you remember that kid Sam Coulson.. The first time I heard him I knew he had something special.. this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54w2fotUXpo He then went on and got a gig playing with Asia, that hes still doing.. Hes still so young.. Im hoping that when he does his stint with Asia and gets some great experience he will come back with his own stuff after.. And here he is with Asia :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcpIOPiTQ6A That was great, thoroughly enjoyed his playing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Well, you said 'rock' and there is plenty I support that is guitar-based outside of rock. I just don't think there are any rock bands that compare to the older rock bands. Obviously because rock topped out and became passe. I don't think any southern rock band, for example, around nowadays can touch Lynyrd Skynyrd or reach their popularity, and that goes for all of the rock genre, IMO. Well, we are talking Rock, most of the players and bands you cite from the past are Rock, And the irony is that there are a lot of good Rock Bands out there but they immediately get compared to the old bands and dismissed because of that. You do understand why is ironic that you are trying to make a point and it seems like you are part of the problem right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal For Real Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 I do agree with you, but I agree with you from our perspective. In 1975, nobody could touch Skynyrd, I agree completely. Today, for you and I, nobody can touch Skynyrd, that is true. For you and I. We are not the targeted consumer for whom popular music is made, and we are not in that world anymore, no matter how we dress, or talk, or cut our hair, or act. We are 40 years past that, and no matter what you think now, Skynyrd was pre-packaged slicked up pop music meant to be sold via FM radio, just like pop music today. There is not an objective comparison because if my kids kids are around and I have Skynyrd on they are not the least bit interested, just like when you and I were listening to NuthinFancy we weren't interested in ShaNaNa or Frankie Valli or anything else our parents listened to. I think you are saying something that is deeply valid, but only personally valid, for you. To be valid for everyone else it requires an objective comparison that just isn't possible. rct I get what you are saying and it's not like we debating who's favorite color is better. I do think the black dots on the page, the arrangements, etc mean something, just like a Rockwell painting has more artistic merit than a stick man drawing. Lynyrd Skynyrd has some good arrangements, great melodies and it took good musicians to play it, let alone write it. And there once was a day when that was appreciated by the mainstream. Now the mainstream wants 'beats' and wants to dance. It's musically shallow...because I think we have put our creativity to other things, like video games, etc. My opinion on why the guitar has waned also has to do with simple arrogance. I think the 80's guitar was in-your-face, I can do this faster than you arrogance. Cobain was the opposite and when he gained popularity people looked back at 80's rock (which was all guitar) and basically saw the arrogance of it. To this day friends of mine who are younger than I and were in their teens in the 90's have a contempt for guitar. It's cool if a bass players, keyboardist or drummer gets wild and flamboyant but if a guitar player does it...what an arrogant jerk. Bad stereotype... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 It's musically shallow...because I think we have put our creativity to other things, like video games, etc. I have to disagree with that.. Video games are probably the most stagnant of media... Sure the graphics get better, but the gameplay and genres have stayed the same for many many years now They need a big kick up the arse if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal For Real Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 Well, we are talking Rock, most of the players and bands you cite from the past are Rock, And the irony is that there are a lot of good Rock Bands out there but they immediately get compared to the old bands and dismissed because of that. You do understand why is ironic that you are trying to make a point and it seems like you are part of the problem right? No, because I don't hear anything creative, which is what music should be. I don't want to hear clones. That's part of the reason the genre has been slipping. No idols, no one worthy to be on a poster in a 13 year olds room. It's just not me saying that, it's the 13 year olds...:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal For Real Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 I have to disagree with that.. Video games are probably the most stagnant of media... Sure the graphics get better, but the gameplay and genres have stayed the same for many many years now They need a big kick up the arse if you ask me. You might be right, I don't play them, just see my kids on them. They sell and that's what the kids talk about so that's where society puts its efforts. When I was young we talked about bands like they were superheroes. Now it's athletes and video games they kids look to. I have a 12 year old and a 11 year old. The 11 year old has been playing guitar and drums since he was 6, the 12 year old doesn't. The 11 year old told me the other day that he doesn't hear good music nowadays and actually spends his time with the music of the 70's and 80's because there is something to play there. He recognizes the decline in the mainstream. My wife played the top 40 station in the car and he said "simple junk"...no instruments and just that loud 'beat'...over and over and over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krock Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 No, because I don't hear anything creative Listen to prog metal or something then. Liquid tension experiment excels at that http://youtu.be/RUaSi0raSiY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 You might be right, I don't play them, just see my kids on them. They sell and that's what the kids talk about so that's where society puts its efforts. When I was young we talked about bands like they were superheroes. Now it's athletes and video games they kids look to. I have a 12 year old and a 11 year old. The 11 year old has been playing guitar and drums since he was 6, the 12 year old doesn't. The 11 year old told me the other day that he doesn't hear good music nowadays and actually spends his time with the music of the 70's and 80's because there is something to play there. He recognizes the decline in the mainstream. My wife played the top 40 station in the car and he said "simple junk"...no instruments and just that loud 'beat'...over and over and over... As has been said... Its just business these days.. I know about computer games cos I used to work with them (for over 15 years)... I saw exactly what happened with games... At first it was one of the most creative industries to be in.. We could almost do what we wanted back in the day (I started in 1995) as no one was really interested in us as a business as no one took it seriously.. Then when games became properly mainstream all the business guys eyes lit up and they got involved... After that, when you had a new idea for a game you had to then get that greenlighted by a board of people and or a marketing department.. Which meant that if they didn't get the idea then it wouldn't get the green light and you had to think of something else.. BUT these people did not play games and wouldn't have known an original idea if it smacked them in the face. Since then most games are sequels or licensed games as that's been proven to sell.. and the whole thing has become so corporate and boring that most of the true creative people have left to go do other stuff that pays better. (And that all happened within about 6 or 7 years). And the same goes for music, movies and the media in general.. Its all so business driven that original ideas are just not understood and they arnt willing to take any risks.. Of course there are exceptions to all of that.. but not many.. We are just in a period where creativity isn't as important as money, even in creative industries.. And that's the way it will be for now.. So to find the good stuff you gotta go to the right places and read the right web sites.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7RuIga3vdk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal For Real Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 Listen to prog metal or something then. Liquid tension experiment excels at that http://youtu.be/RUaSi0raSiY Yes, those guys are mid 40's on up. They have been doing this for 30 years. Eric Clapton is still around but he doesn't count, either. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal For Real Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 As has been said... Its just business these days.. I know about computer games cos I used to work with them (for over 15 years)... I saw exactly what happened with games... At first it was one of the most creative industries to be in.. We could almost do what we wanted back in the day (I started in 1995) as no one was really interested in us as a business as no one took it seriously.. Then when games became properly mainstream all the business guys eyes lit up and they got involved... After that, when you had a new idea for a game you had to then get that greenlighted by a board of people and or a marketing department.. Which meant that if they didn't get the idea then it wouldn't get the green light and you had to think of something else.. BUT these people did not play games and wouldn't have known an original idea if it smacked them in the face. Since then most games are sequels or licensed games as that's been proven to sell.. and the whole thing has become so corporate and boring that most of the true creative people have left to go do other stuff that pays better. (And that all happened within about 6 or 7 years). And the same goes for music, movies and the media in general.. Its all so business driven that original ideas are just not understood and they arnt willing to take any risks.. Of course there are exceptions to all of that.. but not many.. We are just in a period where creativity isn't as important as money, even in creative industries.. And that's the way it will be for now.. So to find the good stuff you gotta go to the right places and read the right web sites.. Agree 100%, my brother has been in CGI since the early 90's. But...the public still falls for it. That forces many of us to find our stuff in the niche. So what has happened to music is happening to your industry and that bites. Back in the day 'creativity made money'...that's my point. People used to value it, now they don't. Mainstream Jane and John Doe, that is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quapman Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Feel free to offer a modern name of a guitarist who has reach the mainstream level of Jim Hendrix or EVH. You can't, and that's not opinion. No, it definitely is an opinion. I agree that there will never be another Hendrix or another EVH. Will you agree that it's not 1968 or 1978? I don't know who will emerge and be talked about 20 30 years from now. Maybe Jack White. Love him or hate him. I happen to really like what he does. Is he a virtuoso? no. Neither was Hendrix. Hendrix pioneered a style at a time that was ready for it. Had nothing to do with the intellect of his black dots. Times have changed yes. But if you can't find anything out there you like it doesn't mean it's all crap. It only means you don't like it. So you don't like Jack White? Someone does. Go ahead and release 9 albums in 10 years,, it's a free country. If you see a void in the market feel free to fill it. You want black dots? Go check out Zappa Plays Zappa and see Dweezil's tribute band to his Dad. F^cking amazing to see. And I saw his Dad twice. I know what you're talking about I really do. But if you don't like any music out there today it really is just your opinion. I am going to order me up a Black Keys album today. Great stuff. That's my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 You might be right, I don't play them, just see my kids on them. They sell and that's what the kids talk about so that's where society puts its efforts. When I was young we talked about bands like they were superheroes. Now it's athletes and video games they kids look to. I have a 12 year old and a 11 year old. The 11 year old has been playing guitar and drums since he was 6, the 12 year old doesn't. The 11 year old told me the other day that he doesn't hear good music nowadays and actually spends his time with the music of the 70's and 80's because there is something to play there. He recognizes the decline in the mainstream. My wife played the top 40 station in the car and he said "simple junk"...no instruments and just that loud 'beat'...over and over and over... Ohh and by the way.. What you say about your kids gives me hope.. You can see yourself that when properly educated the one that is in to music can already see that the mainstream of toady is not what it was for rock back in the 60s and 70s.. As long as there are kids like him, and I think there always will be.. Then theres always hope.. We just need to wait for these kids to grow up and do their own thing ;) And the fact that your other kid isn't so into music.. well, not everyone is and the people that arnt wont search for it thus will only know what they are shown by the companies that control the media.. In saying all that with the internet it has never been easier to spread new music than it is today. (which has both good and bad sides). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal For Real Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 No, it definitely is an opinion. I agree that there will never be another Hendrix or another EVH. Will you agree that it's not 1968 or 1978? I don't know who will emerge and be talked about 20 30 years from now. Maybe Jack White. Love him or hate him. I happen to really like what he does. Is he a virtuoso? no. Neither was Hendrix. Hendrix pioneered a style at a time that was ready for it. Had nothing to do with the intellect of his black dots. Times have changed yes. But if you can't find anything out there you like it doesn't mean it's all crap. It only means you don't like it. So you don't like Jack White? Someone does. Go ahead and release 9 albums in 10 years,, it's a free country. If you see a void in the market feel free to fill it. You want black dots? Go check out Zappa Plays Zappa and see Dweezil's tribute band to his Dad. F^cking amazing to see. And I saw his Dad twice. I know what you're talking about I really do. But if you don't like any music out there today it really is just your opinion. I am going to order me up a Black Keys album today. Great stuff. That's my opinion. Yes, I am a HUGE Zappa fan and I am seeing Dweezil in February. The one part of this debate that throws it off is that we are on a Gibson forum, meaning we all appreciates what is out there now and before. But, if we are talking about John Doe, it's different. People can say "What about Jack White?" but that comes from a musician. The people that I know that aren't musicians all know EVH, etc., few know Jack White. I understand 1978 is gone...and I am glad it is, for the most part...outside of the music...:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I just think that "we," and kids my kids and grandkids' age - if I had any, but we're talking generations - need to realize that they're not functioning under the same media conditions of the 20s through the 70s and early 80s. Universal fame among all age groups regardless of genre is exceptionally unlikely today. Period. Making a living at music is, in most ways, more difficult than it had been in the '30s and definitely more difficult than in the 50s and 60s. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Yes, I am a HUGE Zappa fan and I am seeing Dweezil in February. The one part of this debate that throws it off is that we are on a Gibson forum, meaning we all appreciates what is out there now and before. But, if we are talking about John Doe, it's different. People can say "What about Jack White?" but that comes from a musician. The people that I know that aren't musicians all know EVH, etc., few know Jack White. I understand 1978 is gone...and I am glad it is, for the most part...outside of the music...:) Even if people don't know it.. they know Jack White (average Jane and John that is :)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal For Real Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 I just think that "we," and kids my kids and grandkids' age - if I had any, but we're talking generations - need to realize that they're not functioning under the same media conditions of the 20s through the 70s and early 80s. Universal fame among all age groups regardless of genre is exceptionally unlikely today. Period. Making a living at music is, in most ways, more difficult than it had been in the '30s and definitely more difficult than in the 50s and 60s. m Yes, it is more difficult. The odd thing is that you would think that it wouldn't be, given the marketing advantages we have. BUT, it goes back to the point that John Doe doesn't appreciate it the way John Doe used to. It's a cultural statement, really. I have been giving guitar lessons (for free, to promote the guitar) since 1990, when I was 20 years old. The number of kids has dropped and their attention span and commitment level has dropped. It is easier to learn now more than ever, but they have more choices for their time. They takes the easiest choice, usually. Guitar is a tough deal. You have to be able to go through a long time of lots of work to get nowhere until you break through. I am surprised nowadays then a kid actually sticks with, avoiding the distractions out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quapman Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 But, if we are talking about John Doe, it's different. Lol,, OK,, we both agree that John Doe is an idiot. But it's not all his fault. John and Jane Doe have shaped the market to what it is today. As long as you stay away from the major labels you will be ok.. ha. Enjoy the show in Feb. I saw Frank twice. 80 & 85. When I went to see Dweezil several years back I was skeptical. I didn't think anyone could do his music justice. Not even his kid. But damn,, I gotta say. They really pulled it off. His band is second to none. They played stuff all the way back to Freak Out. And they nailed it. You won't be disappointed. Hopefully it will bring you back some hope that not all music today sucks..lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darling67 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 We all know this famous Guitar music prediction: "We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out." -- Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962. And now, we present the story of that DECCA executive, following the release of "Please Please Me", as told by emoticons: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quapman Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Saw Dweez in 2012 and Frank 3 times in '84. Dweez sure pulled it off wouldn't ya say? And look at that,, 2 Zappa album covers back to back. Gotta like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal For Real Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 If Frank were alive today he would be driven mad by the way the music industry is being run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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