Hidden Problem - Saddle

[docr]

I have my Dove for quite a long time now and have played it mostly without plugging into an amp or DI-box. The setup of the strings was rather low for my opinion, but it was very easy to play, nothing buzzing or making other noise - so everything was fine and acoustically I did not hear the effect which caused me more grey hait than I already have.

The Dove was plugged in an X32 mixer by a Palmer acoustic pocket amp for a rehearsal with my band. Playing around I found that the high e-string was significantly quieter than the other strings. Checking with the level meter of the mixer it was clear that there have been missing some db level from the e-string. Ok - what could be the root cause? Lower string tension of the thinnest string, lower string angle of the string coming out of the bridge, especially as the Dove bridge is rather thick? At the end of the day I removed the saddle and started preparing a new GrapchTec saddle for Gibson applications. After some minutes of grinding of the new saddle I put the old one on a very flat surface and I saw that the lower side of the original saddle (don not know if this setup was still from Gibson or from the store where I have bought the Dove) was not plane - it makes a curve in direction of the lower e-string. Therefore it did not put enought pressure on the VTC piezo element which was placed perfectly in the slot. I have never seen a "curved" saddle surfece of the side touching the piezo in any Gibson acoustic before, but this are "lessons learned". I am glad that this was the reason which could be fixed easily.

I have prepared the new saddle slightly higher and of course with a precisely plane side to the piezo and now the signal from the high e-string is here.

Did you ever make similar experiences? Piezos are a little tricky and I expect the fans og Sound hole pickups will confirm this.

[blindboygrunt]

You're not the first man to have to do that 

Friends guitar was the same 

At least it's an easy fix 

[Dave F]

I’ve pulled a few saddles from piezo strips and most of them had a slight knife edge to ensure contact, not the perfectly flat, square, perpendicular edge I see on most acoustics. 

[TheLeadFlatpick]

I had an Lr baggs element in a Gibson Hp415w I had and the high E was quieter than the rest of the strings when plugged in. I tried leveling the saddle and even replacing the ribbon element pickup with a fishman undersaddle style  (solid bar piezo) but the High E was still quieter than the rest of the strings. I narrowed it down to either the saddle slot wasn’t level of its just the element preamp. Never fixed it, I just sold it and bought a guitar I liked better, but since then I’ve always hated the Lr baggs element pickups

[docr]

Interesting observation. I am glad that I could fix the problem in my case by a simple replacemement of the saddle. Piezo ribbon and per-amp work.

Nevertheless I do not really like the sound of acoustics with piezo pickups but to use the guitar even in a not too loud rock band it is a good compromise. 

[dhanners623]

Last year, I had the stock Tusq saddle on my J-35 replaced with a Bob Colosi bone saddle. Even though Bob provides detailed instructions, I decided to have the work done by a professional. (There's a reason they go to school....)

When he removed the Tusq saddle, he discovered it was thinner than the saddle slot, so the saddle was actually leaning in the slot. The saddle's bottom wasn't making full contact with the bottom of the slot. (I always change my strings one at a time, so it is something I never noticed.) The new saddle fit the slot perfectly, and the guitar's plugged-in sound improved.

Despite the improvement, this summer I had the guitar's electronics -- including the UST -- removed. Decided to go all-acoustic. Aside from making the guitar a bit lighter, it improved the sound even more since the saddle is making direct contact with the bridge.

[docr]

dhanners623 - how do you like the bone saddle? Is it compensated for the B-string? I am just curious, maybe I get some ideas for experiments ... 

I have some Gibson acoustics now and as I am removing all strings at once to come to the fretboard for cleaning reasons I have found that the saddles of at least 50% of my Gibsons are a little to thin with the effect you describe in your reply. In the worst case this could influence the intonation of the guitar, but maybe the 1 or two Millimeters are not enough - but not nice, as you say, the contact to the bridge and to the Piezo is not optimal, but  Dave F writes above, this could even be helpful for the contact to the piezo as the contact area of the saddle is a kind of an edge.

I the case of my Dove the saddle was simply grinded in the wrong way by anyone making the setup. Tusq saddles are relatively easy to treat but I would go to a luthier for a bone saddle, too - no experience with this material.

Your last sentence is interesting for me because I have the same ideas to build at least some of my Gibsons back to "acoustic".  Maybe the removal of the piezo element brings some Millimeters of depth in the slot which avoids tilting of the saddle.

[dhanners623]

1 hour ago, docr said:

dhanners623 - how do you like the bone saddle? Is it compensated for the B-string? I am just curious, maybe I get some ideas for experiments ... 

 

LOVE the bone saddle. Colosi does great work and, yes, it was compensated for the B string. In theory, it is a drop-in replacement for the existing saddle, and Colosi includes a detailed set of instructions for how to sand and tweak the saddle further if necessary. In light of that, I thought it was a job best done by a real repairman. (I was only back in the U.S. for a few weeks.)

The switch was a very noticeable improvement in tone, sustain and volume. Looked cooler, too.

Colosi has pre-shaped saddles for contemporary Gibsons.

[drathbun]

This is a pretty common problem with braided piezo-electric pickups. The piezo doesn't really start to pick up vibrations until about 1/8 of an inch from the end of the braid (where it is crimped). If you put that end right up against the far wall of the saddle slot (the high e string side), the active part of the piezo is still slightly behind the e string towards the b string. The solution I've used in the past was to cut a small slot in the end wall of saddle slot with an exacto, a file, or a dremel just large enough to accept the crimped tail end of the pickup braid. That allows the pickup to slide farther along and get the active part of the pickup under the high e string. 

The other solution is to cut part of the crimped end of the saddle braid off with a pair of side cutters, but I'd rather not do that and risk damaging the pickup or causing the end of the braid to fray.

Edited September 5, 2019 by drathbun

[docr]

The ‚dead end‘ of the piezo ribbon was a part of the problem of my Dove, too. I cut off about 4 Millimeters without damaging the thing - maybe I was just lucky. This brought some improvement, as I did not check the bridge saddle at this time.

Another argument for not using Pietros and  sit in front of a good microphone without moving - better for older guitar pickers who need no stage show anymore 😀.

[drathbun]

10 hours ago, docr said:

The ‚dead end‘ of the piezo ribbon was a part of the problem of my Dove, too. I cut off about 4 Millimeters without damaging the thing - maybe I was just lucky. This brought some improvement, as I did not check the bridge saddle at this time.

Another argument for not using Pietros and  sit in front of a good microphone without moving - better for older guitar pickers who need no stage show anymore 😀.

There are lots of compelling arguments for NOT using a piezo undersaddle pickup, but these are my top two:

1. They sound like crap

2. They make your guitar when unplugged sound like crap (no contact of bottom of saddle with the bridge slot bottom).

[Dave F]

One of days when I have nothing better to do I'm going to notch a saddle and see how it affects the sound if any. 

 

[62burst]

Dave-  what's going on in the photo? 

[Dave F]

12 minutes ago, 62burst said:

Dave-  what's going on in the photo? 

Just a notch example. That's a notched straight edge.

https://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Types_of_Tools/Straightedges/Precision_Notched_Straightedge.html

 

[62burst]

2 hours ago, Dave F said:

One of days when I have nothing better to do I'm going to notch a saddle and see how it affects the sound if any. 

So the notches are used (in the case of your photo) for laying out the location of the notches that the strings lay in? What threw me off was that the thread was talking about how the saddle sits at the bottom.

[drathbun]

17 hours ago, 62burst said:

So the notches are used (in the case of your photo) for laying out the location of the notches that the strings lay in? What threw me off was that the thread was talking about how the saddle sits at the bottom.

That notched straightedge is for checking a fretboard for straightness. The two sides are for short scale and long scale fretboards.

Edited September 8, 2019 by drathbun

[62burst]

Thanks, Doug- I saw Dan Erlewine showing it's uses in the StewMac video included in the link Dave had in his post, 'just didn't know how we went from talking saddles to checking fretboards. Gotta admit though, when first puzzling about that (and Dave's photo), the mind went off into the weeds, thinking about how notches or just changes in the flatness in the bottom of the saddle, might be used to tame or increase loudness of individual strings- kinda like Mr Emin7 using different types of bridge pins to fine tune a guitar's eq.