75 Hummingbird Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Hi all ,looking for some info . I have my 47 -48 in for a neck reset ,rectangular bridge with block logo . This guitar does not have a f.o.n. or serial number ....but wait ...my Luther pops off the neck and on the body side of the guitar,inside where dovetail fits is a 4 digit number . 2247. Any info would be great. Thanks . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) If that is the FON it would date the guitar to 1948. Never heard of the FON being in the neck joint though. Then again in over half a century of playing old Gibsons I have never owned one that needed a neck reset so have never had the opportunity to look. Maybe we were all wrong in assuming immediate post-War Gibsons did not have FONs. Maybe Gibson was just putting them where you could not see them for a few years. Edited October 24, 2020 by zombywoof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
75 Hummingbird Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 I to, have never heard of the f.o.n. being placed in the neck joint , the old girl has had the bridge shaved down and there is no other choice but to reset . I had asked my Luthier to send me pics of the operation and ...i somehow made the pic quite large ..dame ...numbers in the neck pocket . This is like finding treasure lol .Is this where Gibson hide those f.o.n during those couple of years ? Thanks ZW for your info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
75 Hummingbird Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 Sorry to have not included this info . Both the body and neck have the same number stamped on them . Please feel free to contribute . This is not documented in any vintage Gibson material i have consumed . Thank you . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 It is either a fluke or you have stumbled onto a piece of previously unknown (at least to me) Gibson history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Where on the body is the FON? Hopefully Tom will chime in as he knows a whole lot more about pre-1950 Gibsons than I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
75 Hummingbird Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) Stamped numbers are located inside dovetail cavity and on the butt end of the dovetail on the neck Edited October 24, 2020 by 75 Hummingbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 I've never heard of that either, but that number would line up with a 1948 FON. I don't know what the assembly sequence was then, but maybe the neck dovetail and neckblock were rough-fitted together before the body was put together, and the number helped keep the components identified with each other during construction. I have seen random numbers stamped inside Gibsons in a number of places over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 You would think though that if Kalamazoo had been labeling parts with a batch number it would have popped up before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 28 minutes ago, zombywoof said: You would think though that if Kalamazoo had been labeling parts with a batch number it would have popped up before. You would think that, but it's Gibson, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 3 hours ago, j45nick said: I've never heard of that either, but that number would line up with a 1948 FON. I don't know what the assembly sequence was then, but maybe the neck dovetail and neckblock were rough-fitted together before the body was put together, and the number helped keep the components identified with each other during construction. I have seen random numbers stamped inside Gibsons in a number of places over the years. While I am not sure about a post-CMI guitar, it is my understanding that an FON was assigned by management and a hard copy of the order produced directing the shop to build a certain number of a certain model in that batch. This order followed the guitar so that the worker doing the inlay on the board or installing the top binding knew what to do with the parts on their bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 1 minute ago, zombywoof said: While I am not sure about a post-CMI guitar, it is my understanding that an FON was assigned by management and a hard copy of the order produced directing the shop to build a certain number of a certain model in that batch. This order followed the guitar so that the worker doing the inlay on the board or installing the top binding knew what to do with the parts on their bench. JT might be able to comment on that. I thought I remembered a random number stamped inside one of my Kalamazoo Gibsons. Sure enough, the 1968 top (Gibson re-top) on one of my 1950 J-45s has a number stamped on the inside that has nothing to do with the FON of that guitar, but which is formatted similar to the FON. I've seen that on other Gibsons as well. In the case of the OP's guitar, the only hint might come from finding that particular number in the ledgers, and seeing if it belongs to a 1948 J-45, or any guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 1 hour ago, j45nick said: In the case of the OP's guitar, the only hint might come from finding that particular number in the ledgers, and seeing if it belongs to a 1948 J-45, or any guitar. JT certainly might have an answer. If I recall, up to a point, Gibson ledgers only listed guitars with serial numbers. I am just not sure what that point was. FONs though were generally not recorded when a guitar was shipped other than for those instruments which came back for repair. Or something like that. The place to post this one might be UMGF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
75 Hummingbird Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 Thanks for chiming in Nick ,are the ledgers and their info available on the internet ? Tis a bit of a mystery . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 38 minutes ago, 75 Hummingbird said: Thanks for chiming in Nick ,are the ledgers and their info available on the internet ? Tis a bit of a mystery . No, unfortunately. It's a real sore point for vintage Gibson owners and fans like me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
75 Hummingbird Posted October 25, 2020 Author Share Posted October 25, 2020 Hello ,would i create more views of this post if the Title was more specific to there being numbers stamped inside the dovetail body joint and the end of the neck dovetail ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 17 minutes ago, 75 Hummingbird said: Hello ,would i create more views of this post if the Title was more specific to there being numbers stamped inside the dovetail body joint and the end of the neck dovetail ? Not necessarily. The hard-core vintage Gibson enthusiasts who might have something to add will already be attracted by the reference to a neck re-set on a vintage J-45. You have to be patient for responses here. Not everyone visits the forum on a daily basis, and the issue you are dealing with here is primarily of interest to vintage geeks like me. You could start another more specific thread if you wanted, but it may or may not attract a larger viewer universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 ...and a top geek you are, Nick! Good to see old school FON nerd talk from you guys, but as vintage Gibson crazy as I am, I can't get up to your level (or Zomby's or Tom's for that matter). Maybe you need more fiber in your diet, or less kush. Hope you're doing great with your old J's. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 51 minutes ago, jedzep said: ...and a top geek you are, Nick! Good to see old school FON nerd talk from you guys, but as vintage Gibson crazy as I am, I can't get up to your level (or Zomby's or Tom's for that matter). Maybe you need more fiber in your diet, or less kush. Hope you're doing great with your old J's. Dave Thanks, Dave. FONs have interested me ever since I looked inside my first beat-up old 1950 J-45 more than 50 years ago, and asked myself, "I wonder what those numbers stamped on the neckblock really mean?" (Not that I knew a neckblock from a tailblock back then.) The one-owner all-original 1950 J-45 I bought a year ago has become my number one player. It has a wonderful, articulate voice, and more power than you would normally expect from a slope-J. I got really lucky on that one. No one had ever messed with it, and Ross Teigen had only typical straightforward work to do on it to turn it into a superb player. I trust your own vintage J project is coming along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBSinTo Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 FON??????? Again with the jargon! For those of us who don't live and breathe this stuff, what the heck does FON stand for? RBSinTo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 One of the things you will run into is there is just not the same "historic" interest in post-War flattops as there is with the earlier guitars. So for pre-WWII guitars we have Joe Spann's Guide. Then, of course, there is JT's book on the Banners. We also, of course, have the Gibson Banner Registry (as well as a Martin Registry and a NYC-built Epiphone Registry). As chronological runs of post-War guitars have long been established I assume the ledgers went back to recording an identifying number when shipping although I am not sure how quickly after the War this occurred. But your question is not really about the year. It is about the process of stamping parts with an identifying number. I am guessing it will take somebody with the knowledge of a JT or a Willi Henkes to answer that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 (edited) I was happy when you got hooked up with that one, Nick. It wasn't all luck, though. You ponied up. I'm down to trying to convince Steve Kovacik to try and rout a shallow channel and squeeze in a new BWBW sound hole ring. I need to get on it, put my mask on, and take the hour drive to Albany. It has awesome chops, but the top has been sanded to risky thickness and probably finished in stiff acrylic lacquer, so I would be sympathetic to a cautious approach. Edited October 25, 2020 by jedzep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, RBSinTo said: FON??????? Again with the jargon! For those of us who don't live and breathe this stuff, what the heck does FON stand for? RBSinTo Factory Order Number. All guitars were built in a batch which was assigned a number. So will see as example 7116H which is the FON followed by a 16 or some other number indicating which guitar in the batch it was. Edited October 25, 2020 by zombywoof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBSinTo Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 zombywolf, Thanks for the explanation. Does the Factory Order Number either double as the Serial Number of a particular instrument, or make up part of it? From what I've been able to pick up in other conversations here, it sounds like Gibson's record-keeping over the years has been less than stellar. RBSinTo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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