J-200 Truss rod won’t add more relief

[Bob Claw]

Hey everyone.  I purchased a 1992 Black Gibson  J-200. It was my uncles who never played it and kept in in the case the last 30 years.  The sound is amazing but  I have some buss on the D and G.  The action is a lot lower than what I’m used to.  I sometimes like to hammer down on some songs and when I play leads on these two string there  is some unwanted buzz.  I adjusted the truss rod by turning counter clockwise in small increments.  But it seems I don’t have any further to go.  The nut seems to have stopped and I’m afraid to turn it any more.  I also tried adding medium strings.  Is there any harm in trying to loosen the truss rod more even though it feels like doing so is really difficult and not easy to move.  I have heard of tightening it too far but not loosening.  It has the hex head nut at the top.  Any advice would be really appreciated! 

[Dave F]

That's not a standard truss rod nut so I'm guessing you have a two way truss rod. They were doing that in some early 90's models. You do not want to loosen it too much, it's good you stopped. Have you checked  your nut slot depths and saddle height. If you're not familiar with this, get a reputable luthier to check it out. Where are you located?

[Bob Claw]

3 minutes ago, Dave F said:

That's not a standard truss rod nut so I'm guessing you have a two way truss rod. They were doing that in some early 90's models. You do not want to loosen it too much, it's good you stopped. Have you checked  your nut slot depths and saddle height. If you're not familiar with this, get a reputable luthier to check it out. Where are you located?

They seem pretty normal.  My uncle liked the action lower because his fingers aren’t built up since he is more of a banjo player so he may have file them.  I’m not sure.  They don’t look horrible and I have no idea where to start to replace them.  I’m about an hour south of Pittsburgh PA

[Dave F]

Just for testing out, capo the first fret to take the nut out of the equation. Try it and if needed, cut a plastic shim for the saddle. That might get you some direction. If that works you may just need a new nut and saddle.

Heavier strings may pull that neck up too. You may want to try that first.

I'm in KY so I can't recommend anyone, but we have members that may be close to you to recommend some one. 

[62burst]

Good to see Dave checking in on this- I thought I'd also heard something about 2 way truss rods during the early Bozeman MT days for Gibson Acoustic, that, and some other features were different as well. The treble side of the nut looks like it might've been filed down (?). While you're having a look at saddle height, see if you can place a straight edge on the fret board & hopefully it will contact the bridge fairly close to the bridge's top surface. Also, sight down each side of the neck & check that there's no twist.

Edited December 9, 2020 by 62burst

[Dave F]

24 minutes ago, 62burst said:

Good to see Dave checking in on this- I thought I'd also heard something about 2 way truss rods during the early Bozeman MT days for Gibson Acoustic, that, and some other features were different as well. The treble side of the nut looks like it might've been filed down (?). While you're having a look at saddle height, see if you can place a straight edge on the fret board & hopefully it will contact the bridge fairly close to the bridge's top surface. Also, sight down each side of the neck & check that there's no twist.

The '94 Jumbo I recently sold had a two way rod. It moved the neck very quickly. I would have an indicator on the strings to see how it was moving. I would not be guessing with a two way.

[slimt]

9 minutes ago, Dave F said:

The '94 Jumbo I recently sold had a two way rod. It moved the neck very quickly. I would have an indicator on the strings to see how it was moving. I would not be guessing with a two way.

Ya. You dont have to tweek those very much.    

[slimt]

1 hour ago, Bob Claw said:

Hey everyone.  I purchased a 1992 Black Gibson  J-200. It was my uncles who never played it and kept in in the case the last 30 years.  The sound is amazing but  I have some buss on the D and G.  The action is a lot lower than what I’m used to.  I sometimes like to hammer down on some songs and when I play leads on these two string there  is some unwanted buzz.  I adjusted the truss rod by turning counter clockwise in small increments.  But it seems I don’t have any further to go.  The nut seems to have stopped and I’m afraid to turn it any more.  I also tried adding medium strings.  Is there any harm in trying to loosen the truss rod more even though it feels like doing so is really difficult and not easy to move.  I have heard of tightening it too far but not loosening.  It has the hex head nut at the top.  Any advice would be really appreciated! 

Before you mess it up.  Get that to a luthier to set up properly.  Overtighten ,and it could lead to splitting the neck.    Ive seen it before.   
 

if the neck is bowed to much and youve released the tension of the truss rod.  It may need a heat press. To straighten. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by slimt

[Bob Claw]

Thanks everyone.  Really good advice.  I can tell it is so close to being the perfect relief and it sounds so damn good  but I’m guessing there was some filing to the nut and that’s why the action was so low and the buzz occurs.  It’s minor but still slightly annoying.  
 

if I would only replace the saddle, that probably wouldn’t make much of a difference huh? I’m thinking I could pull off that repair but I’m not real sure where the pickup is located.  Is it attached to the current saddle somehow or could I easily remove it? I’d really hate to hand this new baby over to someone overnight to replace the nut but I just might have to do it. Hopefully there is a good Gibson repair shop somewhere in Pittsburgh maybe.  

[Bob Claw]

1 hour ago, Dave F said:

The '94 Jumbo I recently sold had a two way rod. It moved the neck very quickly. I would have an indicator on the strings to see how it was moving. I would not be guessing with a two way.

Thanks Dave.  That really helps.  I thought there was something up because all the videos I watched had a normal nut and not this hex head type end.  It’s really odd though because I’m really not getting as much change as you would think by turning even an entire rotation either way.  It is definately working though because the action gets lower as I tighten the nut, and higher on loosening.  But then eventually stops becoming easy to turn both ways.  

[E-minor7]

2 hours ago, Bob Claw said:

Thanks everyone.  Really good advice.  I can tell it is so close to being the perfect relief and it sounds so damn good  but I’m guessing there was some filing to the nut and that’s why the action was so low and the buzz occurs.  It’s minor but still slightly annoying.  
 

Those slots actually look rather deep. A nut is not the most complicated thing to replace.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            A bit difficult to do yourself though, , , and if you try, be-lacquer-ware when clanking the old one off. . 

[zombywoof]

21 hours ago, slimt said:

if the neck is bowed to much and youve released the tension of the truss rod.  It may need a heat press. To straighten. 

They also use compression frets which is what Martin now goes with.  I had it done to one guitar with a badly cupped neck (no truss rod).  Cost me $150 and the neck came out spot on.

Edited December 10, 2020 by zombywoof

[fortyearspickn]

Turning the truss rod nut a full rotation -  normally it is recommended to only do a quarter turn and let the neck gradually re-set before attempting another 1/4 turn.  Another 'horse out of the barn' suggestion - carefully measure 'before and after'.   As has been noted,  I would not mess with it any further.  And yes, as has also been noted - the nut nut looks like the treble side has been filed down with a bastard file!   You don't need to find a 'Gibson Specific Luthier'.  Just a good 'un.   You can tell if he has a sign over his workbench:  "First, do no harm."   G'luck !