CJB Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 I figured I'd open this can of worms. I keep circling back to ladder braced guitars. The few I've played really stick out in my memory in a positive way. Those of you who like ladder braced guitars, have you compared a Waterloo WL-14L and an LG1? What have you liked about each, pros/cons of one over the other in general (knowing individual instruments have personalities all their own)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) Be careful. Soon you will be wondering about the Gibson "H" and "Lazy H" bracing, the Regal hybrid bracing and such. But you just might be overthinking it all. Anyway, I have played both the Waterloo and the Gibson but the experiences were separated by a number of years. So I would prefer not to base anything on dredging up any old impressions. What I do recall when the Waterloos first came out having to wait almost a year to even get a chance to play one because they were sold before they ever hit the shelf. And when I did get a chance to play the two versions side by side I did favor the ladder braced version. But that was a personal judgement based only on comparing the two Waterloos. Edited January 21, 2021 by zombywoof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, zombywoof said: But you just might be overthinking it all. Yep, probably. I'll probably end trying to get my own hands on both and giving them a try. I know in the recordings I've hear there's a fairly distinct difference but would still love to hear any experience. p.s. I didn't fall for it. Not looking up H, Lazy H, etc, bracing. Nope, staying strong. 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 I own a 1965 LG1 (faded cherry sunburst). I bought it used circa 1990, when vintage guitars could still be bought in expensively. I paid $240. The guitar was in mint condition, although it’s original plastic bridge was replaced with a wood bridge...not unusual for that model. A lot of original owners replaced them either because the broke or figured they would break. The guitar was stiff to play compared to my other guitars. It also was a lot softer volume wise than my other guitars. I assumed at the time it just needed breaking in and was pretty much unplayed before I bought it. Although the guitar by no means was my go-to guitar, I did none-the-less play it over the years. I never minded it’s skinny neck. After about 20-25 years of having it (circa 2010- 2015) suddenly its sound opened up. It got a lot louder. It’s sound for a lot fuller. It began sounding more like a X braced guitar. Why it took so long to to open up since 1965 (45-50 years) is beyond me. Somewhere along the way I acquired an used X braced 2012 Epiphone EL-00 Pro (made in Indonesia) in a trade for one of my guitars that I never played. I was amazed that the EL-00 Pro (with a replaced tusq saddle) was immediately everything that the LG1 took 45-50 years to become once it opened up. Was it because of its ladder bracing? Maybe. Plus, the EL-00 Pro and it’s 00 shape made it about the same size and feel as the LG shape, in terms of comfort. Now jump a few years later and I tried a Waterloo with a 00 shape. Keep in mind at that point I was comparing it to the Epiphone EL-O0 Pro and the LG1. Both the Epiphone EL-00 Pro and the now opened up LG1, were far superior to the Waterloo in terms of feel, sound, and vibe to me. The Waterloo felt like a high quality Harmony Stella to me. Where the Epi EL-00 and LG1 felt and played like a much higher quality instruments to me. It should be noted that I’m primarily a finger picker/melody player as well as an occasional slide player. And, sometimes a rhythm player at a music jam I run. If you want to hear how my LG1 sounds, here’s a link to me playing Celestial Soda Pop on it, about 5 years ago. If you want to compare it to my Epiphone EL-00 Pro, here’s a link to me playing it on a number of songs. Note: I also own a Epi Natural Mahagony EL-00. Limited Edition, that sounds a bit different than the EL-00 Pro. To hear/compare that one, use this link: While I don’t doubt the Waterloo version can fill a niche in a guitar collection, my experience from playing one did not put it in the same realm in terms of versatility, sound, or quality as either the LG1 or either Epiphone EL-00. QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, CJB said: I figured I'd open this can of worms. I keep circling back to ladder braced guitars. The few I've played really stick out in my memory in a positive way. Those of you who like ladder braced guitars, have you compared a Waterloo WL-14L and an LG1? What have you liked about each, pros/cons of one over the other in general (knowing individual instruments have personalities all their own)? Is that you, Goto? 😁 My opinion, sorry Gibson fans - the Waterloo is in another league to an old LG1. The Waterloo ladder braced is designed to sound like a 30s guitar but with a key difference - Bill Collings design and playability. If I was playing at the blues club tonight and my choices in my rack were my 2014 Waterloo WL-14 Ladder Braced or my 1952 Gibson LG1, sorry, no contest - Waterloo. 1 3/4" nut, 2 3/8" bridge spacing, large V neck, incredible ladder braced tone. The LG1 is 1 11/16" nut - Jeff's above from 1966 are 1 5/8" inch nuts? If I had 2000 bucks to buy either, no contest either. Like I said in the other thread, if you must have the 'Gibson' thing, save up for AT LEAST an LG2 or 3 from the mid 50s. (still 1 11/16" nut though)...... I want to go play my ladder braced Waterloo instead of typing this. P.S. If I was really playing at the blues club tonight, not until they figure out how people can sing in a mask, I would take the "Weapon", my custom black finish Maton EBG808 fingerpicking live giggin' machine with the incredible Maton AP5-Pro dual source pickup system! It is like a deep body LG3 with wider neck, nut.....killer! See Tommy Emmanuel - mine is similar to his guitar only black and no sigs. BluesKing777. Edited January 21, 2021 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 (edited) Here is a track I just recorded playing my ladder braced Waterloo WL-14L..... Made for it! (My poor old 52 LG1 would need thousand spent to sound/play anything like this!......neck set, fret job, cracks repaired, new tuners, new top, lots of glue!) BluesKing777. Edited January 22, 2021 by BluesKing777 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 1 hour ago, BluesKing777 said: Here is a track I just recorded playing my ladder braced Waterloo WL-14L..... 🤩 WOW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 (edited) Thanks CJB... Forget the LG1.... Now, the ladder braced to read about next.... Bill Collings based the Waterloo WL-14 Ladder Braced on the Kalamazoo KG-14, a ladder braced cheapie version of the Gibson L-00 put out in the great Depression. There is conjecture that Robert Johnson's most famous recordings were played on a Kalamazoo KG-14. Other guitars he may have played include Gibson L-0 and Gibson archtop, Stellas. One thing I read said that not only could he play the thing but he was also great at setting up and fixing guitars. But his younger sister recently said he was just a 'nasty boy' sometimes.... KG-14....maybe harder to find in good condition that the LG1: https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Kalamazoo_KG_14 BluesKing777. Edited January 22, 2021 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 7 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: There is conjecture that Robert Johnson's most famous recordings were played on a Kalamazoo KG-14. Other guitars he may have played include Gibson L-0 and Gibson archtop, Stellas. One thing I read said that not only could he play the thing but he was also great at setting up and fixing guitars. But his younger sister recently said he was just a 'nasty boy' sometimes.... Yeah Robert liked his booze and women and that is what got him poisoned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted January 30, 2021 Author Share Posted January 30, 2021 Quick update on the Ladder pursuit: I got my hands on a well used Waterloo WL-14L with non adjustable truss rod several days ago. From the first note I could tell it was 'somethin mighty differnt' as my dear old grandma used to say. It's immediate, round warm tone was exactly what I wanted to compliment my LG2. And it feels so alive too. Haven't been able to put it down since and I'm quite content now. It weighs only 3lb 2oz and feels like a toy when you pick it up. It's all black which I don't really like but I can overlook the look and love the tone. Oh yeah, the neck is also a prominent V that is incredibly comfy. I'd still like to get my hands on a good LG1 and will have an opportunity in a few weeks when my local shop resurrects an old 60's model in need of major surgery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, CJB said: Quick update on the Ladder pursuit: I got my hands on a well used Waterloo WL-14L with non adjustable truss rod several days ago. From the first note I could tell it was 'somethin mighty differnt' as my dear old grandma used to say. It's immediate, round warm tone was exactly what I wanted to compliment my LG2. And it feels so alive too. Haven't been able to put it down since and I'm quite content now. It weighs only 3lb 2oz and feels like a toy when you pick it up. It's all black which I don't really like but I can overlook the look and love the tone. Oh yeah, the neck is also a prominent V that is incredibly comfy. I'd still like to get my hands on a good LG1 and will have an opportunity in a few weeks when my local shop resurrects an old 60's model in need of major surgery. I think you’ll find a LG1 looks and feels exactly like a LG2. The difference is the LG2 will have a fuller sound spectrum because of its X bracing. X bracing produces a different sound spectrum than Ladder bracing. From there it’s a matter of which year the LG1 and/or LG2 being compared were made as there were subtle subtle differences in their necks and finishes depending on their originating year. And, of course the set up can always vary from any guitar to another. When LG1s and 2s from the same year are side by side, except for a center wood strip running down the inside of the guitar, the majority would not be able to tell them apart. Also, if a LG1 has new strings on it and a LG2 has older strings on it, likely even their sound would be hard to tell apart. Just want to set some expectation for you when you try a LG1. LG1s and LG2 were made handcrafted side by side in Kalamazoo, just their bracing was different. That’s not the same as trying a completely different machine-made brand guitar like a Waterloo vs. a Gibson LG2 or 1. I’ll think you’ll find the LG1 and 2 substantially similar in looks and feel, just their sound will be nuanced differently. Also, keep in mind that as all vintage Kalamazoo made LG1s and LG2s were handcrafted, everyone of them may have very slight variances in neck feel, sound, and vibe from one another...one of the beauties of being handcrafted. Let us know what you experience. QM aka “ Jazzman” Jeff Edited January 30, 2021 by QuestionMark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, CJB said: Quick update on the Ladder pursuit: I got my hands on a well used Waterloo WL-14L with non adjustable truss rod several days ago. From the first note I could tell it was 'somethin mighty differnt' as my dear old grandma used to say. It's immediate, round warm tone was exactly what I wanted to compliment my LG2. And it feels so alive too. Haven't been able to put it down since and I'm quite content now. It weighs only 3lb 2oz and feels like a toy when you pick it up. It's all black which I don't really like but I can overlook the look and love the tone. Oh yeah, the neck is also a prominent V that is incredibly comfy. I'd still like to get my hands on a good LG1 and will have an opportunity in a few weeks when my local shop resurrects an old 60's model in need of major surgery. I congratulated you on the other channel but here is another one! My ladder is burst and my X is black - a black ladder might just do my head in! Now, to get the ladder ready to plug in and all that entails has taken me a few years...I have had every pickup known to mankind surely, but last year I decided to go 'dual source' to attempt to get the fabulous Maton 'dual sourced' sound from a guitar that is not a...well, Maton. I decided on the K&K Trinity - it is all removable supposedly - a K&K mini on the bridgeplate and a condenser mic in the guitar. I run a stereo lead to the preamp box, which has gain, bass, treble control inside the box and a volume for the mic and another for the pickup to allow you to balance....hmmm...I have both on full! I use headphones or in ear monitors. I have all that pretty sorted after a few months of experimentation. Yesterday, I decided to upgrade my Tonedexter firmware to the latest supposed improved sounds. First, I had to go shopping for an SD card and get home and figure what to do. Pretty easy and done! This morning, I made the first updated wavefile with my...here is the point...Waterloo ladder braced WL-14L. If I run a normal guitar lead to the Tonedexter from the guitar, it allows you to use just the bridge pickup - no mic, that needs stereo lead. Perfect for making Tonedexter files! Here is the first updated sound off the rank, a short blues shuffle - run straight from Tonedexter to my mixer/iMac.: BluesKing777. Edited January 31, 2021 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 @BluesKing777 that was fantastic! Love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 3 hours ago, CJB said: @BluesKing777 that was fantastic! Love it. Thanks CJB! How is the setup on the ladder? Mine was fine straight from the shop and I happily played it as is for a couple of years....but when I had the Trinity installed, I also had a full setup. The luthier said he took a fair bit of the bass side and now I am steaming around! Intonation is just great - I play a lot up the fretboard and that is where getting a Collings build comes in, compared to some of the other klappers you were asking about! BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 I love vintage ladder braced guitars. I'm not referencing Gibsons, but the Oscar Schmidt-built Stellas and Sovereigns of the 1920s and 1930s. A picker can buy these for less than the price of the Collings' copies. Fabulous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 5 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: Thanks CJB! How is the setup on the ladder? Mine was fine straight from the shop and I happily played it as is for a couple of years....but when I had the Trinity installed, I also had a full setup. The luthier said he took a fair bit of the bass side and now I am steaming around! Intonation is just great - I play a lot up the fretboard and that is where getting a Collings build comes in, compared to some of the other klappers you were asking about! BluesKing777. It's really good actually! I haven't felt the need to tweak anything at all. I usually feel the need to fiddle with something about the playability after a few days but I don't want to change anything about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 1 hour ago, CJB said: It's really good actually! I haven't felt the need to tweak anything at all. I usually feel the need to fiddle with something about the playability after a few days but I don't want to change anything about it. No excuses now! Get into it. Here is an interesting article on Acoustic Guitar mag from last year about Audrey Bartlett from Waterloo Guitars: https://acousticguitar.com/makers-shakers-audrey-bartlett-of-waterloo-guitars/ BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 8 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: No excuses now! Get into it. Ha, yep! I'm really enjoying this one. So much so that the Mahogany WL-14 is on the block! Great article, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 On 2/2/2021 at 12:44 AM, CJB said: Ha, yep! I'm really enjoying this one. So much so that the Mahogany WL-14 is on the block! Great article, thanks! So how are comparing the LG2 and Waterloo ladder? We need more than ‘enjoying it’! Recording, videos, same song both guitars, thanks. No pressure then.... (kidding of course). How do you like playing both necks? No sign of a new LG2 of any ilk here as yet, don’t think they are coming really. The local product is a similar size guitar and 1/3 the price and go off like hotcakes when they can get them! Their Martin rack is empty too - one new dread, one used. BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 Sorry bout going dark for a little bit there. I had to take care of a little paint stripper accident in my shop/office. I'll go into those details below but it's not pretty. On 2/3/2021 at 2:47 AM, BluesKing777 said: So how are comparing the LG2 and Waterloo ladder? That's a great idea. I have no idea how to record myself and load it but maybe that'd be a good thing to figure out. As far as comparisons go, it's very easy to go back and forth between the LG2 and the 'Loo. They have different neck profiles but are friendly to each other. I really like the slightly wider spacing on the 'Loo which comes in handy for being a 'picking guitar. The LG2 I mainly do strumming stuff on and while a bit narrower at the nut as well as bridge it is still so very comfortable. There really is something special about that guitar. I still have the WL-14Mh and pick it up every so often and really enjoy it but I'm thinking that it needs to go. It's such a nice guitar and has more of a general overlap with both the Ladder 'Loo and the LG2. The paint stripper story, a cautionary tale of woe: I had the Ladder 'Loo out on a stand across my office from my workbench a couple days after I received it (purchased used from Steve Kovacik in New York - great guy to buy from by the way!). I was working on something and needed to use a little bit of CitrusStrip paint stripper that I brought up from the cold basement. When I opened the container I suddenly discovered that it was under pressure of some kind and it then launched some of it's contents in various directions. I went to work cleaning up the mess and trying to make sure it didn't not get on any important pieces I was working on or on the dog. A little while later I noticed a few spots on the nice clean black guitar on the stand that weren't there before. It turns out that the paint stripper reached all the way over to the guitar stand and was doing what it was intended to do in a few spots on the guitar top and sides. In a mad rush to clean it up I accidentally spread it around more and proceeded to damage some areas on the the finish and melting part of the pickguard. I carefully removed the pickguard using some naphtha and clean rags. The whole thing looked terrible. I had to get back to work but couldn't help thinking about what I'd do about the damage. That night I looked around the internets and found some pictures of old well played ebony colored L-00's and decided that I'd continue the accidental relic of my sweet little Ladder 'Loo. So over the next few days I continued to work on the finish - using all kinds of nightmarish methods like cans of compressed air to 'weather check' the finish, sanding and wet sanding the finish in strategic places to 'hide' the paint stripper spots, and wood stain and I decided while I was at it that I'd do a 'speed neck' as the back of the neck had a gummy finish from 'the accident'. Overall I think I'm done with the relic'ing process. It looks ratty and is hard to look at but she still plays well and sounds even better than before (I think). Hopefully nothing structural happened during all this, seems ok to me but I might take it to a guy who knows what he's doing to make sure. So I guess the 5 year old new to me guitar is now a solid keeper. The 'speed neck' feels amazing too (I used a method mentioned by John Arnold). 10/10 highly recommended to not do this on so many levels. But that's ok. Lessons learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Whoa. Sounds like you went through quite a nightmare ordeal with the paint stripper incident. QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 A really good luthier could have done a touch up job for you. Here is my wife's 1960 J200. We had a second pickguard removed only to find whomever had installed it had sanded the area covered down to wood. You can still see a ghost line where the pickguard was but the touch up job is pretty close. On the black edge of the burst it is virtually undetectable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 7 hours ago, CJB said: Sorry bout going dark for a little bit there. I had to take care of a little paint stripper accident in my shop/office. I'll go into those details below but it's not pretty. That's a great idea. I have no idea how to record myself and load it but maybe that'd be a good thing to figure out. As far as comparisons go, it's very easy to go back and forth between the LG2 and the 'Loo. They have different neck profiles but are friendly to each other. I really like the slightly wider spacing on the 'Loo which comes in handy for being a 'picking guitar. The LG2 I mainly do strumming stuff on and while a bit narrower at the nut as well as bridge it is still so very comfortable. There really is something special about that guitar. I still have the WL-14Mh and pick it up every so often and really enjoy it but I'm thinking that it needs to go. It's such a nice guitar and has more of a general overlap with both the Ladder 'Loo and the LG2. The paint stripper story, a cautionary tale of woe: I had the Ladder 'Loo out on a stand across my office from my workbench a couple days after I received it (purchased used from Steve Kovacik in New York - great guy to buy from by the way!). I was working on something and needed to use a little bit of CitrusStrip paint stripper that I brought up from the cold basement. When I opened the container I suddenly discovered that it was under pressure of some kind and it then launched some of it's contents in various directions. I went to work cleaning up the mess and trying to make sure it didn't not get on any important pieces I was working on or on the dog. A little while later I noticed a few spots on the nice clean black guitar on the stand that weren't there before. It turns out that the paint stripper reached all the way over to the guitar stand and was doing what it was intended to do in a few spots on the guitar top and sides. In a mad rush to clean it up I accidentally spread it around more and proceeded to damage some areas on the the finish and melting part of the pickguard. I carefully removed the pickguard using some naphtha and clean rags. The whole thing looked terrible. I had to get back to work but couldn't help thinking about what I'd do about the damage. That night I looked around the internets and found some pictures of old well played ebony colored L-00's and decided that I'd continue the accidental relic of my sweet little Ladder 'Loo. So over the next few days I continued to work on the finish - using all kinds of nightmarish methods like cans of compressed air to 'weather check' the finish, sanding and wet sanding the finish in strategic places to 'hide' the paint stripper spots, and wood stain and I decided while I was at it that I'd do a 'speed neck' as the back of the neck had a gummy finish from 'the accident'. Overall I think I'm done with the relic'ing process. It looks ratty and is hard to look at but she still plays well and sounds even better than before (I think). Hopefully nothing structural happened during all this, seems ok to me but I might take it to a guy who knows what he's doing to make sure. So I guess the 5 year old new to me guitar is now a solid keeper. The 'speed neck' feels amazing too (I used a method mentioned by John Arnold). 10/10 highly recommended to not do this on so many levels. But that's ok. Lessons learned. So you are keeping it then? 😳 Your photos are not showing - just empty boxes... BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted February 5, 2021 Author Share Posted February 5, 2021 5 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: So you are keeping it then? 😳 Your photos are not showing - just empty boxes... BluesKing777. Yep, definitely a keeper. 😄 Can't see the pics? I'll see if I can figure it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 (edited) 54 minutes ago, CJB said: Yep, definitely a keeper. 😄 Can't see the pics? I'll see if I can figure it out. Probably the best thing to do is to join Imgur photo hosting site - free. Load the photos to Imgur and copy the included link to the forums.... easy and fairly fool proof...😁 2 (pristine!!!) Waterloos easy as A, B. 😄 BluesKing777. Edited February 5, 2021 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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