Tuner Replacement - Vintage J45

[jheath]

I've been playing my '48 J45 a lot lately and DAMN do I love this thing!  There's a lot of non original bits to this thing but the 70+ year old wood makes my heart so happy - so not set on keeping it super original or even original looking, but don't want anything too out of period for it.   On that note, it has some Kluson style 3 on a plate tuners with white buttons, which I don't believe are original but look reasonably period correct.  But they don't work very well and are not in the greatest of shape.  I'd like to upgrade to something else and am hoping someone might have some feedback or suggestions.  Gotoh and Kluson both make replacements that look very similar, but have not got to looking at spacing / etc.  I'm staying away from the StewMac Golden Age Restoration style options - I've had them on a couple of previous guitars and have been vey unimpressed.  

[dhanners623]

I started reading your post and was going to recommend the Golden Age Restoration tuners, then got to the part where you said you don’t like them. I’ve had GAR tuners on five different guitars and have only had one set I didn’t feel was good. I switched them out for another GAR set that worked just fine. I will say that the set of GARs I stuck on my Farida OT-22 last fall has been excellent — and I’d say they were as smooth as Waverlys. (And I have a guitar with Waverlys, so I would know.)

Waverly does now offer a 3-on-a-plate set. They are pricey ($275) but I will attest Waverlys are very smooth. Whether they are worth the money is a judgment only you can make.

Were it me, I’d say give Golden Age Restoration another try. If you don’t like them, send them back to StewMac.

[jheath]

17 minutes ago, dhanners623 said:

I started reading your post and was going to recommend the Golden Age Restoration tuners, then got to the part where you said you don’t like them. I’ve had GAR tuners on five different guitars and have only had one set I didn’t feel was good. I switched them out for another GAR set that worked just fine. I will say that the set of GARs I stuck on my Farida OT-22 last fall has been excellent — and I’d say they were as smooth as Waverlys. (And I have a guitar with Waverlys, so I would know.)

Waverly does now offer a 3-on-a-plate set. They are pricey ($275) but I will attest Waverlys are very smooth. Whether they are worth the money is a judgment only you can make.

Were it me, I’d say give Golden Age Restoration another try. If you don’t like them, send them back to StewMac.

Thanks for the feedback.  I swapped out the GAR tuners on my Martin CEO-7 for some Gotoh's.  I had them on a Waterloo but only had the guitar for a short period of time, so might be worth another shot.   Waverley's are expensive for sure, but I'd probably consider them if there was an option for the "plate" portion to be a little simpler or plainer "plate" portion - the gold / brass plate and gears are a little much.  

[dhanners623]

14 minutes ago, jheath said:

Thanks for the feedback.  I swapped out the GAR tuners on my Martin CEO-7 for some Gotoh's.  I had them on a Waterloo but only had the guitar for a short period of time, so might be worth another shot.   Waverley's are expensive for sure, but I'd probably consider them if there was an option for the "plate" portion to be a little simpler or plainer "plate" portion - the gold / brass plate and gears are a little much.  

Yeah, Waverlys’ plate is kind of garish. And only comes in one color.

My beef with the Gotoh and Kluson 3-on-a-plate tuners is the buttons are just too white. They really stick out, especially on a vintage guitar. The buttons can be aged (or even replaced) but I’d rather just start with something cream colored, or ivoroid.

[jedzep]

I would contact Steve Kovacik for authenticity, as he carries a good stash of original vintage tuners.  When he replaces the buttons he uses the creamy aged ones from Antique Acoustics.  I just sold a set of gorgeous wartime era Klusons I had bought from him a few years back that were good for Js but short in the posts for my 30's Ls.

Often, over the decades, various owners move tuners around and monkey with the peghead holes, so that replacements work poorly due to difficulty sizing the bushings.  A little wiggle in that area will cause pull on the posts wrenching the gear angle enough to make them funky.

Also saw a good bunch on Reverb.

http://www.guitar-repair.com/tuners.htm

Edited April 22, 2022 by jedzep

[Dave F]

I have a stash of vintage ones but if you don't mind this style it should work. 18:1 and cream buttons

https://www.kluson.com/kluson-3-on-a-plate-supreme-series-tuning-machines-details.html

[zombywoof]

The three-on-a-plate enclosed tuners would be right for a '48 Gibson.  They would be stamped "Kluson Deluxe" down the center line.  There are a bunch of repro versions out there.  Personally, if it were me, I would go on eBay or someplace and get a good functioning original set.  

 

[zombywoof]

38 minutes ago, jedzep said:

I would contact Steve Kovacik for authenticity, as he carries a good stash of original vintage tuners.  When he replaces the buttons he uses the creamy aged ones from Antique Acoustics.  I just sold a set of gorgeous wartime era Klusons I had bought from him a few years back that were good for Js but short in the posts for my 30's Ls.

 

Both the 1932 Gibson which I still have and the 1935 Gibson which I used to own had Waverly tuners.  The plates on the earlier sets were notched in between the tuners while the later ones had a straight edge.

While they were available, Antique Acoustic tuners were the standard for Gibson restoration.

Edited April 22, 2022 by zombywoof

[Dave F]

1 minute ago, zombywoof said:

Both my 1932 and the 1935 Gibson I used to own have Waverly tuners.  The plates on the earlier  tuners were notched in between the tuners while the later ones had a straight edge.

I have a few of those sets

[Dave F]

Another Gotoh option

https://reverb.com/item/3539699-gotoh-factory-aged-relic-nickel-3x3-on-a-plate-deluxe-vintage-style-tuners-3sd

 

[dhanners623]

46 minutes ago, Dave F said:

Another Gotoh option

https://reverb.com/item/3539699-gotoh-factory-aged-relic-nickel-3x3-on-a-plate-deluxe-vintage-style-tuners-3sd

 

Gotta admit those look sharp….

[E-minor7]

I cannot say anything that's not been said already. Besides I'm a Stewmac-customer and have purchased 2 very sets of tuners from them.                                                                                                                                                          Golden waffle-backs for my Dove and Waverly (reliced) ovals for my special slope-shouldered D-18. 

So instead I enjoy reading your lOVE-declaration for the old 45, , , and trust you will find something that stays in line of that model and era. 

Be happy - and send pics

[j45nick]

One of my 1950 J-45s has the original three-on-a-plate single-line Klusons. These are easily cleaned and restored to good working order. They do not have the low gear ratio of modern tuners, and have a fair amount of backlash, but once tuned, they hold tuning perfectly.

Be aware that some of the modern repro Klusons come with larger ferrules that could require headstock modification. If you have the smaller, pressed-nickel tuner post bushings (ferrules), do not replace those when you change tuners.

Be sure and verify the string post diameter and length on your old an new tuners. The originals are a full 1/4", I believe, and many of the repros are slight smaller in diameter. and may also be slightly shorter.

Whatever you do,  it is a poor idea to modify the headstock in any way to accommodate new tuners.

If you ever need repro tuner buttons, the Antique Acoustics ones from Elderly Instruments are the most accurate design, including having concave sides like the originals.

[dhanners623]

If you keep the originals, Frank Ford has a tutorial about cleaning your gears: http://frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/GenMaint/Gears/GearTune/geartune1.html

[j45nick]

I'll elaborate on Frank Ford's directions for cleaning Klusons which have an oiling hole.

• Remove the tuners from the guitar before cleaning
• using a glue syringe or something similar, flush each tuner housing thoroughly and repeatedly through the oiling hole  with naphtha , until it runs out of the housing perfectly clean.
• dry each tuner, then place on a rag and allow 24 hour for everything to drain and evaporate.
• lubricate through each oiling hole with just a few drops of Tri-Flow., using their syringe oiler.
• turn each tuner key through multiple revolutions to distribute lubricant.
• wipe off any excess.
• if there was significant excess, wipe outside of tuners with a rag slightly dampened with naphtha.
• polish inside of ferrules (bushings)using a premium metal polish such as Flitz on a cotton swab.
• polish string  posts with the same polish.
• If these are old Kluson tuners showing surface rust on the gear covers and mounting plates, Flitz does a good job of removing just enough of this corrosion while leaving a bit of patina
• re-install tuners.

I have restored numerous sets of old Klusons to good working condition using this method, including three on a plate, single tuner, and six on a plate (for 12-strings). It works well on any tuner with an oiling hole.

[jedzep]

Hi Nick!  You do all that?  How great IS retirement? 
Hope you're well.  Dave

[j45nick]

On 4/23/2022 at 3:55 PM, jedzep said:

Hi Nick!  You do all that?  How great IS retirement? 
Hope you're well.  Dave

I still call myself semi-retired. For whatever reason I seem to be busier now than when I was working for a living.

I need to go back to work to get some rest.

[jheath]

Hi Everyone - thanks so much for all of the opinions and info here.  I did some digging around and have determined that the tuners I have on this guitar are mid / late 60's era 3 on a plate Klusons.  They are "double line" single hole 3 on a plate Klusons and have a white plastic knob.  There's really nothing wrong with how they function but may still try to get some period correct replacements.   There some great info in this thread, thanks so much to all who responded.