JenningsMusic Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Bottom line, these days, is the dependability of my Vetta II compared to the tube amps I've had. I've been playing for forty years and I can't count the number of times tubes have let me down. I bought my Vetta when it came out and it has never let me down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossroadsnyc Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Well, I'm glad you bottom lined it and cleared things up for all of us. I suppose I should just go sell my Marshall's since it's so difficult to change tubes ... really, that's a horrifyingly unnecessary 10 or 15 minutes of my time once a year (ok maybe twice if I got a bad tube). And besides, as some have indicated, nobody in the audience can tell anyway, right? There is a reason modeling technology continuously strives to reach the performance of a tube amp - because that is the benchmark for superior sound. I'm sorry, I just don't buy the argument that "having a tube somewhere in the chain" is the same ... it's not. I could stick several tubes in a Vox modeler or a Line 6 modeler and it's not going to get around the fact that you're still working with digital technology - all those tubes in there are doing is acting as glorified light bulbs. Anyway, like I said before, it's fine for laying down something at home or playing late at night when you need silence. To use it live? Never. It's very much the same as listening to your favorite artist on a record versus a CD ... I'll take the old record every day of the week. Is the record/tube amp as crystal clear and precise as the digital technology? No. But it lacks the feel. It lacks the soul. It lacks the nuance and dynamics that make up what is ultimately most pleasing to our auditory senses. As the old saying goes "if it don't have tubes, it better have boobs" ... haven't seen modeling technology get that far yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 To each his own... I can't afford a great tube stack (Bogner/Diezel/Mesa/Engl/Koch), but at least I'm enjoying my 1988 Les Paul Standard Silverburst very, very much. It's a great guitar that means something special to me. I especially love the ebony fretboard. Live I'm playing through an Engl tube combo with old tubes... Still a nice Les Paul tone, but I know it sounds much better through a more expensive tube stack. My 80's Les Paul (11 lbs) sounds exactly like Zakk Wylde - No more tears, through my little Roland Cube 30X. Literally every note sounds the same. Very authentic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 As much as I love old classic guitar sounds, I do find myself having a few concerns about tubes............................ 1 - I've heard - dunno how much truth there is in it or to what extent - that tube manufacture is a pretty nasty, toxic process, accounting for the fact that the majority of tubes are made in former communist countries; places that aren't so strict about clean-air regulations. I have heard this from some reliable sources, but I'd love to know more about this. If this is a real truth, I'd certainly prefer to spend time tweaking/programming/whatever and keep it cleaner and greener for future generations. Call me a tree-hugger if you like, but the planet is more of a priority than the sound of one signal-path over another, especially when there are viable alternatives. 2 - We're long-gone from the days when, if a tube blew, you could toddle on down to your local electronics store, lay down a couple of bucks and grab what you need. Now, they are already a "specialist" item in the grand scene of things and we pay far more, relatively, for something which, according to many, is inherently of a lower quality than in the valve "glory days". Made overseas with less care and lower quality components and less quality control, by most accounts. NOS tubes are a viable alternative, but (a) I wonder if the years of sitting around change the sound from what it would have been back when and ( that supply will inevitably dry up in the future - perhaps the not-too-distant future. What if Russian & Chinese laws get stricter, or they see less demand over there in non-guitar fields and close up a few factories, too? Are we getting closer to a time when it will be impossible to get a truly "classic" tube tone because the tubes themselves are just not the same thing anymore? And which would be closer (purer?) then - increasingly accurate modeling of a long-gone, classic tone referenced right from the original source, or something running with lesser components, a shadow of its former self? Not a leading question, just a genuine question. 3 - In a world where the vast majority of recording is done in the digital realm (and, as pointed out, keyboards are predominantly digital, as are a huge number of studio effects and certainly, as well as the recording media itself, the playback/listening media too) and most onstage PA reproduction of out-front, mic'd and mixed sounds are certainly solid-state, do we really gain much from using tubes at that one point in that chain, or is it really not that different from shoving a digital modeling processor into, say, a 12AX7 tube preamp or 6L6/EL84 power amp anyway? Both ways around, what we're actually getting is a signal chain - from strings to ears - that has technology you wouldn't have found in the 60s; even modern PAs in a club are a different animal than the common methods of amplifying bands in the 60s. When the world has changed, can we ever really, truly, honestly recreate those tones or is it ultimately - and increasingly - like pissing into the wind? Most of us know there is a huge difference between hearing one's amp in a studio or right there on the stage and hearing a recorded version, or even the mixed, out-in-the-theatre version you hear in an audience. And is there a difference in compatibility between various technologies and the other points in the overall signal chain? I've certainly found that many digital effects don't sound as good through a tube amp as analog ones do, but that many analog effects, when put into a modeling amp, don't sound as good as an all-digital chain. Just my opinion, of course, but it makes me think.............. Ultimately, I do think overall design and component quality have more to do with a good guitar sound than does any particular type of component itself. There are great, mediocre and poor examples of tube, SS analog and digital gear all around us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mick Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Ultimately' date=' I do think overall design and component quality have more to do with a good guitar sound than does any particular type of component itself. There are great, mediocre and poor examples of tube, SS analog and digital gear all around us. [/quote'] 4th post and I like you already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LPC Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 As much as I love old classic guitar sounds' date=' I do find myself having a few concerns about tubes............................ I've heard - dunno how much truth there is in it or to what extent - that tube manufacture is a pretty nasty, toxic process [/quote'] The vast majority of modelers are made in China and the far east under the same lax environmental rules. What about all the silicon, plastics, aluminium, steel and copper that must be sourced and processed for them ? If this is a real truth' date=' I'd certainly prefer to spend time tweaking/programming/whatever and keep it cleaner and greener for future generations. Call me a tree-hugger if you like, but the planet is more of a priority than the sound of one signal-path over another, especially when there are viable alternatives.[/quote'] There is nothing green about products that have a short life span. The term built in obsolescence could have been written for chip based circuits. Valve amps generally last for decades - sometimes not even requiring a change of valves. My JMP 50 from 1978 just gives an occasional ping from a preamp valve as it warms up. Now that's what I call green ! I've certainly found that many digital effects don't sound as good through a tube amp as analog ones do' date=' but that many analog effects, when put into a modeling amp, don't sound as good as an all-digital chain. [/quote'] That's because an analog pedal through a digital circuit is sampled, and the tone is reduced in quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 The vast majority of modelers are made in China and the far east under the same lax environmental rules. What about all the silicon' date=' plastics, aluminium, steel and copper that must be sourced and processed for them ?[/quote'] I can understand your point to a degree, but aren't plastics, steel, copper and aluminium in loads of valve amps too - as well as tubes? How bad do you reckon silicon is for the environment - isn't it made chiefly from sand? What I'm wondering here is about the valve-making process itself- is it comparable to or worse than typical manufacturing processes? I'm trying to keep an open mind, but I've heard that it's the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 4th post and I like you already Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 That's because an analog pedal through a digital circuit is sampled' date=' and the tone is reduced in quality.[/quote'] But the all-digital sounds great in comparison, IMHO. As does the all-analog, I hasten to add. It seems to be the mixture that works less - though some may disagree with this. But then, in this post-vinyl era, we end up going digital anyway, be it CD, mp3, wav, flac, or whatever................... we usually have to make the conversion at some point. Are we better, then, to maintain format consistency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 But then' date=' in this post-vinyl era, we end up going digital anyway, be it CD, mp3, wav, flac, or whatever................... we usually have to make the conversion at some point. Are we better, then, to maintain format consistency? [/quote'] :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamienAzrael Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 The problem with stuff like Line 6 is they try to sound like everybody else...Amps by Marshall, Mesa, Fender, VOX, Orange, Randall, Soldano, etc. all have there own characteristics to them...Plus the power of a real tube amp can't be beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mick Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 That drunk in front of you could care less as long as your playing the song properly Hell he don't care about that most of the time ether. Usually if you mess up a bar or something only the other players in the crowd will notice. Well if you don't absolutely destroy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Shouldn't this be on the lounge? You made a valid point there Guitarest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mick Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 A$$ kicking loud killer tone A$$ kicking versatility and tone at any volume. Plus I can use it as just an FX board in front of the JMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solacematt Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I disagree' date=' first Line6 started the mdling craze and at the right stage volumes your tube amp does not act the way its supposed to do. The only way to have a real tube interaction is for high volumes from the amp. If you use a foot pedal then your not using the amp as it was designed. I do not use any distortion in front or the effects loop of my 5150. I mic everything and the only way I get a really good sound is to power up, then I kill everything on stage; its the PA's duty to promote power no matter how small the gig. We can go back and forth, but I will not because we have different thoughts on equipment. Neither of us are right or wrong, but the proper way to use the tube amp is to use the tube amp and nothing else.[/quote'] Some venues don't mic instruments, only the drums. Like the venues I'm playing next Friday. A tube amp is a much. Solid state will NEVER cut a real gig, not even if your amps are miced. No true clarity, especially distorted, unless your thing. As for having to use a pedal for distortion, I do, because amplifiers don't create the disgusting distorted sound that I use, and neither do those amp modeling Line 6 garbage amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mick Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Solid state will NEVER cut a real gig' date=' [/quote'] Simply not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solacematt Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Simply not true. Your right...solid state amps are great for industrial bands. Example, Static-X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mick Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 James Hetfield used these on many of Metallica's recordings Solid state tone machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamienAzrael Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Your right...solid state amps are great for industrial bands. Example' date=' Static-X. [/quote'] Static-X is not industrial first off....Secondly, I do agree with you....Solid state just wont do the job if you're not goin' through the PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossroadsnyc Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I disagree' date=' first Line6 started the mdling craze and at the right stage volumes your tube amp does not act the way its supposed to do. The only way to have a real tube interaction is for high volumes from the amp. If you use a foot pedal then your not using the amp as it was designed. I do not use any distortion in front or the effects loop of my 5150. I mic everything and the only way I get a really good sound is to power up, then I kill everything on stage; its the PA's duty to promote power no matter how small the gig. We can go back and forth, but I will not because we have different thoughts on equipment. Neither of us are right or wrong, but the proper way to use the tube amp is to use the tube amp and nothing else.[/quote'] Interesting post. So you are saying that Jeff Beck, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Rory Gallagher, Randy Rhoads, and Tony Iommi (as just a few examples) don't use their amps properly? After all, all of those gentlemen have been well known users of using treble boosters/overdrive/distortion pedals in front of their tube amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mick Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I just don't understand why anyone would limit themselves to a single option. Have you ever really tried a high quality SS amp ? Or are you views based on one bad piece you couldn't dial in. Maybe it's your limitations that keep you from getting a good tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossroadsnyc Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I just don't understand why anyone would limit themselves to a single option. Have you ever really tried a high quality SS amp ? Or are you views based on one bad piece you couldn't dial in. Maybe it's your limitations that keep you from getting a good tone. Well, if this is going to turn into taking pot shots at people, perhaps it's your limitations that keep you from KNOWING good tone? I mean, if you are saying that a solid state amp is on par with a tube amp, should anyone really take what you have to say regarding tone seriously? Just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamienAzrael Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I just don't understand why anyone would limit themselves to a single option. Have you ever really tried a high quality SS amp ? Or are you views based on one bad piece you couldn't dial in. Maybe it's your limitations that keep you from getting a good tone. Getting a good tone has a lot to do with how you set the EQ on your amp, but what you get from a tube amp is a much warmer/rounder sound then you'd get out of the majority of solid state amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mick Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 yes they should It's been my job for a 1/4 century. And I wasn't taking a pot shot it is possible that he does not know how to utilize a SS amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mick Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 out of the majority of solid state amps. Yes the majority are junk but there are some very good ones out there as well. There are crappy tube amps to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.