musings on digital modeling vs tube amps

[RichCI]

my current girl (5150)

 

That's a killer amp and I used to use one for rocker customers to demo guitars when I worked in a music store back in the 90's. It made everyone sound like a metal god. They're a little noisy when you got the gain cranked up a bit but sound awesome.

[Glenn]

Hey, that's a great video.

So, do you think the toxicity of the process has been greatly exaggerated?

That would certainly allay one concern about tubes and the future. Are there any prominent European or North American manufacturers, still? What about Groove Tubes, where do they get theirs from?

I am trying to decide whether my next amp will be a Blackheart, an AC15, an Orange, a Line 6 Vetta, a Vox Valvetronix or a Fender Blues Deluxe....................... all undoubtedly sound terrific and have much potential as great musical tools, so I'm trying to look at all angles....................

[Thundergod]

Hey' date=' that's a great video.

So, do you think the toxicity of the process has been greatly exaggerated?

That would certainly allay one concern about tubes and the future. Are there any prominent European or North American manufacturers, still? What about Groove Tubes, where do they get theirs from?

I am trying to decide whether my next amp will be a Blackheart, an AC15, an Orange, a Line 6 Vetta, a Vox Valvetronix or a Fender Blues Deluxe....................... all undoubtedly sound terrific and have much potential as great musical tools, so I'm trying to look at all angles....................[/quote']

 

What kind of sound are you looking for?

 

If you like clean tones, then check out the Roland JC120, one of the best amps ever made IMO, and it gets along really well with pedals, better yet with digital fx.

[Glenn]

Well, it may be more of a G.A.S. purchase than anything else.

 

 

I have Carvin, Marshall, Vox and Genz Benz amps right now - the Vox is a digital one, a modeling 20W, by the way, and I use that in the jazz trio I play in, right out into the PA mix. We have me, keyboards and V-Drums, through a really nice - and large - PA system. It's great, I just plug in and forget and can get on with the business of playing. I use both clean and dirty sounds, as well as inbetween ones. A lot of ease of use there, it feels almost like the purity of playing classical in the way you can just connect with the guitar and not worry about outboard issues. My Carvin is a different kind of animal, I've used that for gigs and recordings in a lot of different situations, with a lot of different kinds of effects and it's a great sound for lots of things. The Genz Benz has basically one kind of sound but it's a nice sound, though not really usable in some situations - it's such a "spiky" tone that it doesn't blend very well in orchestras and that's a lot of what I do these days - playing in theatre pits for musicals etc. the Marshall I really just use at home, for some recording, though quite honestly it's been supplanted lately by a little Zoom Kiko Loureiro (reprogrammed; the original patches were, um, not quite right for what I needed) into an ART Tube MP and I've found it's far easier that way to capture the tone I'm looking for at any hour, with way more consistency. Interestingly, I have found that Marshalls just don't sound the same here as in the UK, and Fenders the opposite. I also have a PA head with Genz Benz cabs that I use for quite a bit of theatre stuff to just accurately reproduce the sounds I programmed, or the tones from my Digitech Brian May pedal (also a good one for recording). I guess these things cover me for most situations I find myself in, but I like the idea of (a) a bigger, more powerful modeling amp to use for lots more occasions or (:) a nice, simple little "character" valve amp to use for rock stuff and the 70's tribute band I play in sometimes.

I do like both extremes - I feel those single channel, low-wattage valve jobs all have their own, vintage style personalities and though the bad ones can be quite a frustration, the good ones have such charm, even in their quirks. if you get a really good one, or a simple one with a couple of nice mods, you have something really fun to play, but I also find, for me, that once you get into channel-switching, effects loops, SS rectifiers, multiple eq control options, noise gates and the like, the "tube" part becomes less relevant and you really may as well go for something even more versatile and reliable. There's a huge, huge difference between, say, an old Bassman and a modern Boogie - and I despise the sound of Boogies. So, there is nothing quite like playing through, for example,an old AC30, (though it has to be an original to really have that sound - the SS rectifier ones are not the same sound at all, I've heard quite a few models that are closer than some of these reissues) but, I tell ya, I'd far rather play a Vetta than a Boogie, purely on a tonal basis.

I am interested, I guess, in getting either a classic little 18w (or thereabouts) valve combo, or something new and cutting-edge with more power for onstage volume in bigger venues.

Crap, did that answer your question at all?

[Thundergod]

Well' date=' it may be more of a G.A.S. purchase than anything else. :-

[/quote']

 

What isn't??? :-

[Thundergod]

Jazz trio? :- I insist... JC12=p~ you already have enough tube amps to chose from!

 

Those V-drums are great, I have 2 sets (assembled as one big set) in the sutio for laying tracks inn a hurry and for demos (most bands here don't have money so they can't afford the time to tune, mic, mix and test a drumset propperly before recording).

 

How does the Brian May pedal work? Is it worth finding one? (which is prety hard here)

 

 

I do like both extremes - I feel those single channel, low-wattage valve jobs all have their own, vintage style personalities and though the bad ones can be quite a frustration, the good ones have such charm, even in their quirks. if you get a really good one, or a simple one with a couple of nice mods, you have something really fun to play, but I also find, for me, that once you get into channel-switching, effects loops, SS rectifiers, multiple eq control options, noise gates and the like, the "tube" part becomes less relevant and you really may as well go for something even more versatile and reliable.

 

Damn right man!

 

 

Crap, did that answer your question at all? :-

 

I don't know man... but it was a very interesting post anyway!

 

[Glenn]

Jazz trio? :- I insist... JC12=p~ you already have enough tube amps to chose from!

 

Those V-drums are great' date=' I have 2 sets (assembled as one big set) in the sutio for laying tracks inn a hurry and for demos (most bands here don't have money so they can't afford the time to tune, mic, mix and test a drumset propperly before recording).

 

How does the Brian May pedal work? Is it worth finding one? (which is prety hard here)

 

 

 

[img']http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/thundergod_5/anim_32.gif[/img]

 

 

Perhaps you're right..................those Rolands are great for jazz - plus 2 of my fave players have used them extensively: Andy Summers and Steve Rothery.

 

Yeah, the V-Drums are terrific - I especially love that they can get a nice big sound at any volume - after a bit of a fight with tinnitus (too many loud, loud sounds in my life so far!), I've really started to appreciate that factor. Same goes for good guitar sounds at safe volumes too, of course.

 

The Brian May pedal is awesome, by the way - you can go into an amp or straight into the mixer, or both simultaneously, or stereo amps (great for the ping-pong delays), it takes other pedals very well (I use a Marshall BluesBreaker 2 into its front end) and can also use a footswitch to access any of its 14 sounds remotely. I did a Queen tribute last year and got a lot of positive comments about nailing the Queen guitar sound. It doesn't do much except Brian May sounds, but it really does that very well! They're great tones, he even used one himself on the Meatloaf album. Well worth finding one, nice and sturdy metal construction, too. I got mine on ebay. I take it you're not near any Guitar Centers or anything?

[Thundergod]

No... Im in south A... and there's not many dealers here, in fact there's only one digitech dealer and he sells everything at 150% more than the list price. I might buy one of ebay tho...

[Glenn]

If you're a fan of Brian's tones, you'll get a lot of pleasure out of it, I reckon....................

[Robmosis966]

Sorry if I am repeating anything already stated earlier but just my opinion.

I started with SS amps simply because of convienience for many years.

When I bought my first all tube amp I heard what I was missing.

I now mainly use an AC30CC2 now and absolutely love this amp.

My first tube amp was the B-52 AT100 which is also a fantastic tube amp for $600. And I still own it and use it for metal.

Once you play a all tube amp for a length of time there is no comparison to SS.

Even when a company says that you can't get any closer to a tube amp than there ss without being a tube amp there is no comparison.

A SS amp lacks so much of the warmth and natural compression that there is just no way to reproduce it.

It always amazed me the amount of time, research, and money amp manufacturers spend in trying to replicate the sound of a simple tube amp circuit.

If you look at a simple tube amp circuit and compare it to the mess of technology in a SS state equivilant, it is amazing what they have to do to even try and come close tone wise. (which never happens)IMO

I have never played a SS amp that even comes close to the feel of a tube amp.

I am not saying that there aren't great sounding SS amps out there, because there are, but none of them sound, or react to your playing like a true Tube amp.

I have played a lot of SS amps in comparison and have yet to find that magical one.

If anyone knows of a SS amp that they like, I would like to check it out so please share them with us.

The closest one is the Vox valvetronics amps which are hybrid type amps.(I am a Vox fan so I am probably biased towards them though) LOL

Peace, Rob

[Thundergod]

When I bought my first all tube amp I heard what I was missing.

I now mainly use an AC30CC2 now and absolutely love this amp.

 

Like this one?

 

Maybe it's time we had a VOX club around here... ;)

 

[Glenn]

I came from the opposite end, really...............

 

My first amp was a tube amp - a WEM Dominator - and I was overjoyed at first, not having much to compare it to, but as time went on, I felt a bit frustrated by what Frank Gambale terms a "flabby, spongy bottom end" and the inconsistency (as I then saw it; really the volume-dependancy) of its ability to overdrive. I added a distortion pedal and enjoyed it much more, for a while - it was the '80s! When I went into my local music store (then Middlesborough Music Centre in England) and tried a Laney amp I was floored to hear the sound I'd been trying to get: tight, even, consistent and full, with lots of harmonics. It was a Solid State amp, though I gave nary a crap about that as the "tube/solid state" argument was not something that I'd even come across then. As I said, it was the '80s; to be fair, what was my ideal sound then may not be these days. I also used a Marshall 30w combo a little later , followed by a SS Vox head into a Marshall cab, and they were each very nice; I couldn't say which gave me a better sound, they were all just what I needed.

 

I've since played through many tube, SS and Digital amps and each have their good and bad examples, of course. My fave tube amp: an old 4x10" Fender Bassman when I was in a blues band - lovely sound, but bulky and a bit fragile. My least fave tube amp: a Traynor combo - horrible, slicy tope end no matter what you do. My fave Solid State amp: Perhaps that Vox/Marshall combination, or quite possibly a later model Laney - the 2x12" World Series Twin - full of great sounds - the nicest clean sound of any amp and some great distortion; again, those Laney SS models had a real knack for pulling out harmonics and overtones. My least fave SS amp: a Randall RG75 - had it for about a week and returned it, saying I'd rather have an amp LOL.

 

Looking back, I think the difference in the ones I've really liked - whatever they had inside - is that most of them had Celestion speakers.

 

In all honesty, I think that's a bigger difference.

 

Having said all that, my tastes in guitar sounds have changed over the years, where once I though Eddie Van Halen was the "goal of tone", now my faves are guys like Gambale, Stern, McLaughlin, Fripp and Holdsworth.

[RichCI]

My first amp was a tube amp - a WEM Dominator - and I was overjoyed at first' date=' not having much to compare it to, but as time went on, I felt a bit frustrated by what Frank Gambale terms a "flabby, spongy bottom end"[/quote']

 

For me, that occurs depending on the type of sound I'm going for. For hard rock tones, I much prefer a solid state rectifier over a tube one; the tube rectifiers just don't react fast enough to keep the low end nice and tight. Also, more powertubes/wattage gives a beefier low end without as much sag. That translates into more headroom so you end up not working the power section as hard and have to rely more on preamp gain for dirt if you can't get away with blasting the amp though so it's a bit of a compromise. More wattage at lower volume is the route I've been going with my band setup; it's total overkill for the volume we play but I get a nice beefy low end out of the amp that manages to not step all over the bass guitar or kick drums. Conversely, for clean and mildly overdriven tones, I like a tube rectifier to get some of that compression and give that usually occurs only when working an amp pretty hard.

[Glenn]

OK, here's a bit of fun:

Go to my Reverbnation page:

and check out the track "Hoist". I recorded 2 lead guitar parts, one is a tube amp and the other is a digital model. Can you guess which is which? There are the main melodic parts, where they play together, and then each one has a solo.......................

[tulsaslim]

Congrats to all of you guys for a great informative discussion that didn't turn into a brawl. You covered this topic completely, IMO, and pointed out the pros & cons of each very well.

 

No, you'll never be able to replace 'true tube' but some of these modelers are very good and serve a great purpose both functionality-wise and price-wise.

[Witmer]

OK' date=' here's a bit of fun:

Go to my Reverbnation page:

and check out the track "Hoist". I recorded 2 lead guitar parts, one is a tube amp and the other is a digital model. Can you guess which is which? There are the main melodic parts, where they play together, and then each one has a solo.......................[/quote']

 

What fun! I'm guessing that the guitar mixed louder during the harmony, and panned right - the first solo- is playing through the tube amp. The guitar panned left - second solo - is the modeler. Am I right?

[Glenn]

Hey, thanks for having a listen. I thought it might be an interesting exercise as I say, just for the fun of it, really.

I'll hold on & see if anyone else wants to guess and then I'll say which is which.

[esch]

Great technique and artistry Glenn!!

The sound quality wasn't very good so it is tough to say but I would go with highwaynine and say the right panned guitar in the first part was the tube amp, either that or they are both modelers?

[Thundergod]

I will LMFAO when Glenn says they were both recorded with a keyboard (°_°)

[80LPC]

It's a shame about the audio compression - that darn digital again

 

I thnk the guitar on the left, and the second solo are the digital ones. I just heard a whiff of comb filtering and the sound was thinner, with less bass. But could this be a cunning plan....? Glenn might have taken a juicy valve amp and messed with the eq....

 

No, Glenn wouldn't possibly do that would he ?

[80LPC]

I will LMFAO when Glenn says they were both recorded with a keyboard (°_°)

 

Well the guitar on the left sounded a bit like a Casio....

 

Only joking. Glenn, your playing made it irrelevant what you were using. Nice tune and soloing !

[Glenn]

Thanks for the compliments, guys; much appreciated.

 

Yeah, the mp3 is a bit over-compressed, just to get an easily-downloadable file size. The .wav version has more clarity, but horses for courses, it makes for a quick dl this way............

 

In the interests of clarity, disclosure and honesty, I can say that there's no additional EQ (and, no, neither are a keyboard!) but I did use a speaker simulator and some digital reverb with both the valve amp and the digital model.

 

The valve amp is a Traynor and the modeled sound is a Roland version of a Soldano. I used the same guitar, an Ibanez, for both.

 

The original idea when recording was not to try to offer comparison between the 2 types of signal path or anything like that, just to try to get 2 different and complementary sounds that would work together. I did the same thing on the instrumental track "Gina", too (if you wanna have a guess at that?), only one's a Marshall and one's a Roland there. I did it 'cos I was gonna do some tracks with a friend who'll ONLY use tube amps, so I used one for the one part that I intended him to play, plus to show where his solo would go. But that particular project never got off the ground, so it's just a demo.

 

Incidentally, he couldn't tell which was which.

 

Though I'm sure no-one's really hanging on the edge of their seat or anything, I'll pop back on tomorrow and say.

 

Cheers,

Glenn.

[Glenn]

Ah, sorry, have been a few days. Was in Detroit; walking on air after meeting the mighty ALLAN HOLDSWORTH!

 

Anyway, the guitar playing the lower of the 2 harmony parts and taking the first solo is all-digital, all modeled.

The one playing the higher harmony and taking the second solo is the tube amp.

 

As I say, I did the same thing on the track "Gina", but one is a Marshall, and one is a fake Marshall LOL. They cross over phrase by phrase, though, so it's harder to even describe which is which. Mind you, I definitely think that with 2 guitars, there's a complementary thing that happens when combining modeled and analog sounds, though. Dunno why, but I think it works.

[Witmer]

Ha! Well, you're right that they work well together. I don't mind being wrong. =)

[80LPC]

Yes, tonally there was a good contrast, and I don't mind admitting I was wrong. When you stick your neck out, don't be surprised if your head gets chopped off !

 

I'm not sure if this says something about my ears or Traynor amps...I did say it could be a valve amp with altered eq.